What to look for when buying a terminal bull

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ccr said:
Dave said:
They will leave the smokes and other Char crosses but the buyers will cut out any red white faced calf every time.

Dave, why is that?

I am not certain of the exact answer. But I have heard that they get too many high yield grade calves at finish and they don't have the rate of gain that others have. Now there are certainly individual calves that will do as good or better that the ones they like. However you know those big feed yards keep real good records and they will look closely at the performance from different characteristics. And they are working on the average of a certain group not what a certain individual does. As much as possible they keep track of where the calves come from too.
 
I used to buy every smoke and cream colored calf I could. I bought them at a big discount and they out gained almost everything.

RWF is a harder one. Depends on what made them. I have noticed the RA based kind can get fleshier than "improved" blacks.

Red calves are not common here, so they usually get sorted off and sold about 5 cents back. If you put together a group of heavy feeders they may sell even with, but more typically 2 to 3 cents back, of blacks. So again they make the backgrounder/stocker more money than blacks.

I think SBMF nailed it. Depends on what orders the big buyers have. They pass on the junk, and they also pass on the most profitable calves.

Black Limi for producing commodity calves. Red Angus for producing grass fed beef.
 
Things are different in the north. Traditional Simmies and Charolais sell very well if the quality is there. There is no added money for anything being black. A black calf that weighs the same as a good Simmental or Simmie cross will sell as well as the Simmie all things being equal.
Buyers stopped in for a visit last night and talked about how feeders and buyers do pay attention to which ranches calves come from and know very well how they perform. Reputation is key. They also talked about how they like calves that come off open range and how they are better competitors at the feed bunk than their small tame pasture counterparts. Some interesting stuff.
Herefords are a tough sell up here though. Neighbouring ranch is transitioning away from them simply because they are a tough sell. And they had good ones too.
 
Stocker Steve said:
SBMF 2015" When I sell my feeders my smoke strs bring .10/.15 back from there black sibs of the same weight. [/quote said:
Sad but true in some markets.

Seems to be more variation in Simi as it has become more popular here. Also seems to throw some chunky x bred calves when added to the mix.

I would look at black Limi for growth and muscle and long easy calving offspring.
Got to looking up limousine bulls never been real popular around here that I know of but dang them are some thick bulls and the black hide helps I'm definitely going to give them a look.
 
76 Bar said:
buyers do pay attention to which ranches calves come from and know very well how they perform. Reputation is key.
Yep...Reputation quality calves are alway well received regardless of their locale.
I just wish you could build a reputation with 20 calves. It's hard for a small operation to get compensated for buying quality bulls, backgrounding... it seems if you cant put a pot load thru the ring, your always gonna docked.
 
Steve, 550 lb black steer at 1.75 brings $962.50. Smokey steer at $1.65 needs to weigh 33 lb. more to match that. Can a Charolais sire on a black cow do that?
 
anewcomer said:
Steve, 550 lb black steer at 1.75 brings $962.50. Smokey steer at $1.65 needs to weigh 33 lb. more to match that. Can a Charolais sire on a black cow do that?
I don't buy char bulls. I do buy char X calves. :cowboy: I am told they sell well in SD, but they are discounted here.
 
anewcomer said:
Steve, 550 lb black steer at 1.75 brings $962.50. Smokey steer at $1.65 needs to weigh 33 lb. more to match that. Can a Charolais sire on a black cow do that?
From what I see with neighbor B's black and smoke calves the answer is yes they can. And here there isn't a dime difference in price. I will try to remember to get some pictures when the cows come down and weaning starts.
 
Dave, thanks for the comment. In my country, I would be stunned if the Charolais sired calf didn't exceed that 33 lb.
 
I've transitioned to primarily Sim bulls from straight Angus over the last 5 years. I compared my sale weights and have calculated a 47 lbs increase in weight in the sim influenced calves. Not an exact science by any means as different years have different weather conditions and my sale dates have varied by around 3 weeks from year to year. I have seen enough to be confident that I have significantly increased my weights by introducing some continental blood into my herd.

I chose sim to be able to also keep the black hide coloring that the buyers here want.
 
ccr said:
Muddy said:
Charolais is a good terminal breed, unfortunately they're not very popular with feedlot buyers here. Black feeders will fetching more $ than Charolais X feeders at the same weight...even a 550lbs black steer brings more than a 650lbs CharX steer. 🤷‍♂️

Muddy, is this because of the good marketing of the angus association or sure enough a better product with the black (gaining weight, marbling, carcass quality)? In the store you see the label certified angus beef and I reckon the consumer thinks, well this has to be better than a package that does not have the "certified" labeling.

I guess what I'm wondering is the black better or just good marketing?

edit: after thinking a little bit, guess this a naive question. I just can't get over how marketing a product rules color/breed of cattle bought and sold.


Do a search on the Board on this. All marketing by the Angus Association from back in the 70's early 80's when no one wanted the short and fat Angus. I will spare everyone my rant about this, you can find it though.
 
Lazy M" I have seen enough to be confident that I have significantly increased my weights by introducing some continental blood into my herd. I chose sim to be able to also keep the black hide coloring that the buyers here want. [/quote said:
I think every major beef breed comes in black, so no Simi required for that.
Black Herefords, Black Chars... :hide:

Are you retaining Simi X heifers?
 
I have said here before that the neighbor has around 40 bulls in his bull pasture in the winter. I would guess 25 Char and 15 Angus. He buys bulls with good breeding. I don't think there is any specific science about who gets turned out with who. The cows go out to 4 different range areas and bulls get randomly selected to go with the different groups. He doesn't keep any of the Char cross heifers for replacements.
 
Stocker Steve said:
Lazy M" I have seen enough to be confident that I have significantly increased my weights by introducing some continental blood into my herd. I chose sim to be able to also keep the black hide coloring that the buyers here want. [/quote said:
I think every major beef breed comes in black, so no Simi required for that.
Black Herefords, Black Chars... :hide:

Are you retaining Simi X heifers?
Hesitantly, yes. I was worried that they would be hard keeping cows but so far have been pleased with their performance. The oldest cows I have sired from the sim bulls are on their 3rd calves. They have a little more frame then the Angus influenced cows but they have kept their condition well and raise good calves.
 
Lazy M said:
Stocker Steve" Are you retaining Simi X heifers? [/quote said:
Hesitantly, yes. I was worried that they would be hard keeping cows but so far have been pleased with their performance. The oldest cows I have sired from the sim bulls are on their 3rd calves. They have a little more frame then the Angus influenced cows but they have kept their condition well and raise good calves.

I would call Simi higher management cattle than the traditional British breeds. We were buying fancy 1/2 and 5/8 Simi heifers but had to quit. Too much milk, too blocky of a calf shape, and not enough longevity, for our system. "Too much power." I put a PCC bull on the survivors.

Had a long conversation with Aaron on this. He thinks more than 1/4 Simi is too much of a good thing, and he is usually right. :nod:
 
Lazy M said:
I've transitioned to primarily Sim bulls from straight Angus over the last 5 years. I compared my sale weights and have calculated a 47 lbs increase in weight in the sim influenced calves. Not an exact science by any means as different years have different weather conditions and my sale dates have varied by around 3 weeks from year to year. I have seen enough to be confident that I have significantly increased my weights by introducing some continental blood into my herd.

I chose sim to be able to also keep the black hide coloring that the buyers here want.

I wrestle with the notion of bringing in continental bulls often, and am again thinking that as I have built up an Angus and Hereford cowherd. How is the calving and hardiness of the calves from the Simmental bulls?
 
As a charolais breeder (race consider terminal) I need to choose breeding animals that can raise a good calf like any other races. So maternal qualities are important (milk, legs, calving without difficulty, etc.) But I need to raise animals with good growth and maybe more frame to put on smaller cows. Just some thoughts.
 
Ky hills said:
Lazy M said:
I've transitioned to primarily Sim bulls from straight Angus over the last 5 years. I compared my sale weights and have calculated a 47 lbs increase in weight in the sim influenced calves. Not an exact science by any means as different years have different weather conditions and my sale dates have varied by around 3 weeks from year to year. I have seen enough to be confident that I have significantly increased my weights by introducing some continental blood into my herd.

I chose sim to be able to also keep the black hide coloring that the buyers here want.

I wrestle with the notion of bringing in continental bulls often, and am again thinking that as I have built up an Angus and Hereford cowherd. How is the calving and hardiness of the calves from the Simmental bulls?
Honestly the hardiness of the calves is as good or better than the Angus bred calves. The calves are bigger overall but I haven't had to assist any more than in the past. I think the added size may add some extra vigor to the calves upon birth. I do have an Angus bull and a CE Hereford bull that I use on heifers.
 
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