What to look for in a bull?

[Dusty Britches]

You need my kind of bull. :cboy:

When I bought him, 1/2 my herd was heifers, but I wanted a bull that would produce fast growing calves that would wean at 600 pounds.

He is an Angus, son of New Design 1407. I posted his EPD's a while ago, but his actuals were just as impressive. 64 pound actual birth weight (EPD +.3). 770~ weaning weight.

It is hard to find a low birth weight, high weaning weight bull, but I think you might like the New Design line.

Most sales will post breed averages. Study them and compare them to your prospects. You might also want to look at milking abilities and assess your current cow herd first. What would you like to add to it? When we go to buy, I assess the EPD's and my partner in crime assesses the physical attributes. Together, we make a good team. You are right to assess the whole animal, and not just one trait. Afterall, you are buying the entire package.

 

[dun]

We use calving ease bulls (more or less calving ease anyway) on cows and heifers. We just weighed all the calves at the backgrounders. Some of our lowest birthweight calves were in the upper 10% for weight, that's 7-8 month old calves. You can have your cake and eat it too, you just have to be very selective. Our heifers also calve without help, it's all part of the selection process.

dun

 

[Aero]

while we are takling about good calving ease with high growth and the New Design line, we have 50+ calves by G A R New Market 7892 on the ground and they are some good looking calves.

+2.1 BW
+52 WW
+101 YW
solid above average carcass too.

http://hilltopangus.net/images/GNM7892-25per.jpg

http://www.angus.org/common/epd_ped_det ... d=14222787

 

[RosieRanch]

Rosie,

Your shooting some bullits there for 14 posts!!!

In Dusty's defense:

Sometimes you watch a post from the sideline and you see it going back and forth like a ping pong match (at least in his/her opinion). While we're all cattle people at heart, we all have differing levels of taking this before we feel that you just have to jump in and say something. (my own personal peave is the talk of black herefords. It never fails, after some time, someone will post and say something about a herd of black herefords that they saw, and like them) RHhhhhhh, just thinking of it makes me mad.

In my defense:

'I haven't shot any bullits yet, that I know of. I was just reminding him of the type of goal I have. Then, trying to explain it in his terms.'

I don't have anything against black herefords. I like them myself. In fact, I am trying to breed my heifers as we speak to a hereford in hopes of getting a few.

 

[cypressfarms]

No hard feelings there Rosie, I was only trying to help out.

By the way, I believe Dusty is a "she".

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Just a little side note on heifers & calving ease. First, I believe in raising my heifers so that they are grown out as well as their genetics will let them, without getting fat. I believe in letting them work. I do not expect a 60# calf. 70-90# is an acceptable weight that all my heifers can handle (Yes, mine are Simmental, but they are mostly a 6 - 6.5 frame now - not huge). We definately will help a heifer, but other than mal-presentations, that is rare. Firtually, never help cows other than mal-presentations.
Calving ease with growth is a wonderful thing.
But, a reminder or warning. Be sure you don't use toooo much low birth weight bulls. Extremely low birth weights, can contribute to future calving difficult cows if you keep replacements out of those extrememly small calves. They are tooo small to calf a normal size calf.
Yes, I totally agree that there are exceptions, and the number figures/frame size I quoted are from MY HERD - Simmentals. Other Simmentals, Herefords, Angus, Charolais herds are individuals and different.
Too low a birth weight for me, maybe just right for someone else. Just use common sense. That's why the old wife's tale used to be "you never keep a replacement female out of first calf heifers". That's because they used to breed heifers to calve little dinky calves that didn't grow. Nowadays, you can have your cake & eat it too - with the "spread" bulls available.

 

[RosieRanch]

Just a little side note on heifers & calving ease. First, I believe in raising my heifers so that they are grown out as well as their genetics will let them, without getting fat. I believe in letting them work. I do not expect a 60# calf. 70-90# is an acceptable weight that all my heifers can handle (Yes, mine are Simmental, but they are mostly a 6 - 6.5 frame now - not huge). We definately will help a heifer, but other than mal-presentations, that is rare. Firtually, never help cows other than mal-presentations.
Calving ease with growth is a wonderful thing.
But, a reminder or warning. Be sure you don't use toooo much low birth weight bulls. Extremely low birth weights, can contribute to future calving difficult cows if you keep replacements out of those extrememly small calves. They are tooo small to calf a normal size calf.
Yes, I totally agree that there are exceptions, and the number figures/frame size I quoted are from MY HERD - Simmentals. Other Simmentals, Herefords, Angus, Charolais herds are individuals and different.
Too low a birth weight for me, maybe just right for someone else. Just use common sense. That's why the old wife's tale used to be "you never keep a replacement female out of first calf heifers". That's because they used to breed heifers to calve little dinky calves that didn't grow. Nowadays, you can have your cake & eat it too - with the "spread" bulls available.

I agree that <70# calves are a bit small. I want a calf that will be easily born but be strong enough to survive once it gets here and not a malnourished-looking calf. I mean sure I want a live birth. I also want a live sell at weaning or a live replacement, whatever the case. That's my hopes.

That's why I asked if a 4 birth in angus is too large for a calf if the CE was a 6+. The avg. BW is 2.4. Do you think a BW 3 or 4 is too big for some angus-x, char-x, sim-x or hereford-x heifers avgeraging 900-1000 lbs.?

 

[Frankie]

I agree that <70# calves are a bit small. I want a calf that will be easily born but be strong enough to survive once it gets here and not a malnourished-looking calf. I mean sure I want a live birth. I also want a live sell at weaning or a live replacement, whatever the case. That's my hopes.

That's why I asked if a 4 birth in angus is too large for a calf if the CE was a 6+. The avg. BW is 2.4. Do you think a BW 3 or 4 is too big for some angus-x, char-x, sim-x or hereford-x heifers avgeraging 900-1000 lbs.?

The American Angus Association recommends using a bull with a BW EPD of less than 3 on first calf heifers. You're going to get some size on those calves just due to the heterosis by cross breeding, plus Chars, Simis and Herefords aren't necessarily known for calving ease. My suggestion is to stay below a 2 on BW EPD and at least a 7 on calving ease for an Angus bull. Pay attention to not just the bull's BW EPD, but his parent's BW EPDs. And watch them when they're ready to calve.

 

[RosieRanch]

If the bull himself does not have any numbers yet, can someone tell what the epd is by his parent's epd? How?

 

[Frankie]

If the bull himself does not have any numbers yet, can someone tell what the epd is by his parent's epd? How?

Rosie, I wouldn't buy a bull without numbers to use on heifers. But that's just me.

When a bull is registered, many times he'll have Interim (I) EPDs. They will be his sire and dam's EPDs added together and divided by two. For example, sire's BW EPD 6, dam's 0, the calf will have an Interim (I) BW EPD of 3. Sire's WW 30, dam's 15, calf will have Interim (I) WW EPD of 23. I wouldn't use this bull on heifers because he may have inherited his sire's lack of calving ease, even though his numbers are ok. That's why I say look at not just his own BW EPD, but also his parents.

You can go to the link below and put in the bull's parents' registration # and get their EPDs. Is the bull registered? Is that why there are no EPDs available? Is there any way you could get the heifers AI-ed?

http://www.angus.org/registeredangus/

 

[cypressfarms]

If the bull himself does not have any numbers yet, can someone tell what the epd is by his parent's epd? How?

Rosie, I wouldn't buy a bull without numbers to use on heifers. But that's just me.

Right on Frankie!!!!! Why test on heifers when a 4 or 5 year old cow will do much better.

I am a firm believer that good management of heifers will drastically reduce the amount of calving problems, but using a bull with no EPD's is like shooting in the dark.

I don't think using a parent's epd's is sufficient. So much changes in Epd's in just a couple of years, updated data is vital.

 

[RosieRanch]

="Frankie"
You can go to the link below and put in the bull's parents' registration # and get their EPDs. Is the bull registered? Is that why there are no EPDs available? Is there any way you could get the heifers AI-ed?

http://www.angus.org/registeredangus/

I think the reason is that the bull is not registered yet. He is still a yearling (about 14 months). I have seen an older bull that is registered but no #'s on him or sire's side.

How can full siblings have different #'s? Like there are a couple of twins that have totally different epds.

 

[Frankie]

="Frankie"
You can go to the link below and put in the bull's parents' registration # and get their EPDs. Is the bull registered? Is that why there are no EPDs available? Is there any way you could get the heifers AI-ed?

http://www.angus.org/registeredangus/

I think the reason is that the bull is not registered yet. He is still a yearling (about 14 months). I have seen an older bull that is registered but no #'s on him or sire's side.

How can full siblings have different #'s? Like there are a couple of twins that have totally different epds.

The Angus Assn doesn't "give" EPDs any animal. If there's no data on the database on a calf's parents, he won't have EPDs.

They can be as different as full brothers. Don't you know of a family with tall kids and short kids, red heads and blonds, fat kids and skinny kids all in the same family? Even flushmates aren't necessarily genetically identical.

 

[dun]

Even flushmates aren't necessarily genetically identical.

Even split egg clones are different.

http://abs-bs.absglobal.com/beef/angus. ... o=29AN1463
http://abs-bs.absglobal.com/beef/angus. ... o=29AN1464

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

In the Simmental breed, epd's are generally identical on full sibs, until they have progeny on the ground, because epd's are first based on ALL their ancestors, which are exactly the same.

 

[TSR]

I agree that <70# calves are a bit small. I want a calf that will be easily born but be strong enough to survive once it gets here and not a malnourished-looking calf. I mean sure I want a live birth. I also want a live sell at weaning or a live replacement, whatever the case. That's my hopes.

That's why I asked if a 4 birth in angus is too large for a calf if the CE was a 6+. The avg. BW is 2.4. Do you think a BW 3 or 4 is too big for some angus-x, char-x, sim-x or hereford-x heifers avgeraging 900-1000 lbs.?

The American Angus Association recommends using a bull with a BW EPD of less than 3 on first calf heifers. You're going to get some size on those calves just due to the heterosis by cross breeding, plus Chars, Simis and Herefords aren't necessarily known for calving ease. My suggestion is to stay below a 2 on BW EPD and at least a 7 on calving ease for an Angus bull. Pay attention to not just the bull's BW EPD, but his parent's BW EPDs. And watch them when they're ready to calve.

I agree with Frankie on the bull selection. I might also add that if you will breed those heifers to calve at about the end of your hottest three months the calves will GENERALLY be smaller. This gets back to the previous discussion about calves being born larger in the North. The reason is basically more blood flow is to the outside of the animal (continually trying to keep cool on the hot days) therefore a smaller calf. Unlike in winter when more blood flow is directed toward the inside trying to keep warm, conserving the heat in the blood/circulatory system. More blood flow to the inside=more blood flow to the yet to be born calf, resulting in a larger calf. Also, nobody wants to pull a calf but a spreading of the pelvic area before maturity (2-3 yr old) due to a larger calf will generally mean easier births in the future. JMHO