What Is the Most?

[Chuckie]

What is the most you would pay for a bull to up the genetics in your commercial cow herd? I've heard to spend as much as you can afford, but then there is a point I guess you are over doing it. I would like to save several heifers from this bull to increase the herd. I have seen several yearling bulls go for a lot more than I would pay for them with EPD's that were too low. And I have seen where the EPD's are really good, and go for less than $2000.00. I am seeing bulls with less desireable EPD's, that look really nice, bring a lot more than I would pay because of the EPD's. I always wondered if a bull matured really early in body mass, would he stop growing sooner? Has he peaked out at that point and is going to be a short animal. If the intended market is to sell early, do you want the early bloomer that stops or one that keeps growing for a while? Chuckie

 

[Subsoil]

I think a good ball park number is 4 times the value of you best calves.

If your selling calves at the sale barn for $500 a head, you could justify paying $2000.

If you selling show heifers at $2500 each, you could justify $10,000.

Not science, but just a guide.

 

[J Baxter]

It would depend on how many cows he's servicing and what your plans for them are ie replacements or feeders. I'd say about $100 bucks for each cow he needs to service. If you have 10 cows you should be able to buy a good 15 month old bull to service them for around a thousand (or slightly more dollars) 20 cows a 2000 two year old 30-35 cows a 3-3500 three year old bull. That will leave you with roughly the same money in each calf and you should be able to get genetics that would enable you to make good replacements or improve carcass.

JB

 

[CattleAnnie]

Most of my bulls were in the $2000. - $2500. range. I try and get the most bang for my buck, but I do run primarily commercial cows, so if I can get reasonable EPD's and excellent conformation in that price range (at least with pre-BSE calf sale prices in the fall) it fit both my budget and operation needs.

Take care.

 

[El_Putzo]

We are looking at some bulls right now too and trying to figure out what we want and are willing to spend. I think it all depends on what type of cows you have and what you are looking to do with your herd. If you have small wean and yearling weights and want to improve them, you may want to spend more for a better than average WW bull. Likewise, if you are having calving problems and need a bull that throws small calves with easy calving, you will pay a premium for those qualities. On the other hand, you may already have a quality cow herd to where you can put a less than average bull on them and still get the quality of calves you are looking for. I think in the situation we are in, we are going to have to spend at least $2000 for a bull as we are looking for a bull with ease of calving and better than average WW and YW. Every producers needs are different, you just have to figure out what you have and what you are looking for and go from there. Just my $.02

 

[dun]

I know I've harped on this before and everybody is probably sick of it, but here goes.
A big increase in WW won't happen without a cow herd that is capable of producing the milk to support them. You can creep and supplement to get those weights, or sell rangy looking calves that generally don't sell to well, or what I think is the best solution, improve the cow herd

dun

 

[Chuckie]

I am definitely going to improve the cow herd. I have some commercial cows now that are keepers. Then some need to go and will be leaving this year. I will be keeping as many heifers for a while as I can. But I definitely need a better bull too. I want to go by his sound conformation so that he and his offspring will hold up, and by his low birth weight, high yearling weight, milk production, and scrotal circumfrence.
I want his BW, YW, and milk production to be above average. The SC could be average. I know that I will not be able to find the perfect bull at what I want, but I am sure going to see how close I can get it. I did see several in a sale that fit the job for under 2000.00, but I would pay more if I had to. Chuckie

 

[El_Putzo]

I know I've harped on this before and everybody is probably sick of it, but here goes.
A big increase in WW won't happen without a cow herd that is capable of producing the milk to support them. You can creep and supplement to get those weights, or sell rangy looking calves that generally don't sell to well, or what I think is the best solution, improve the cow herd

dun

I agree and if you run a mostly closed herd like we do and save your own heifers, by buying a better WW bull, you are improving the cow herd!!

I guess I should have explained more thoroughly that I was trying to express that same point.

 

[dun]

Increasing WW by and of itself doesn't help the cow herd to raise heavier claves. Milk does that.

dun

 

[El_Putzo]

Good lordy!! I was using WW as an example of a trait. ITS JUST AN EXAMPLE!!! I'm not trying to tell anyone how to get better WW or MM or YW or anything for that matter. Just trying to point out that if you want superiority in a certain trait, you will have to pay a premium for that type of bull. That is all dependant of course, on how many superior traits the bull has.

I guess I should have put it this way: IN MOST CASES, you get what you pay for!! If you want to improve your calf crop you will need some of those superior traits in your bull. If you want an average calf crop you can get by with an average bull for less money.

 

[Anonymous]

A good Bull is only half the answer.

 

[dun]

Good lordy!! I was using WW as an example of a trait. ITS JUST AN EXAMPLE!!! I'm not trying to tell anyone how to get better WW or MM or YW or anything for that matter. Just trying to point out that if you want superiority in a certain trait, you will have to pay a premium for that type of bull. That is all dependant of course, on how many superior traits the bull has.

I guess I should have put it this way: IN MOST CASES, you get what you pay for!! If you want to improve your calf crop you will need some of those superior traits in your bull. If you want an average calf crop you can get by with an average bull for less money.

I may have been a little too quick to jump on it. But I see too many times that people get bulls with really high WW because they sell at weaning. Then they're disappointed because the calves don't grow any better then their old bulls calves, they just look rangier. A smart buyer can get those rangy calves and put some comp. gain on them, but if they're runty from the start because of poor nutrition they're going to make up all of the growth potential. I think that's why they typically sell for less, that and because they can.

dun

 

[greatgerts]

I am definitely going to improve the cow herd. I have some commercial cows now that are keepers. Then some need to go and will be leaving this year. I will be keeping as many heifers for a while as I can. But I definitely need a better bull too. I want to go by his sound conformation so that he and his offspring will hold up, and by his low birth weight, high yearling weight, milk production, and scrotal circumfrence.
I want his BW, YW, and milk production to be above average. The SC could be average. I know that I will not be able to find the perfect bull at what I want, but I am sure going to see how close I can get it. I did see several in a sale that fit the job for under 2000.00, but I would pay more if I had to. Chuckie

What kind of bull are you looking for Chuckie?

 

[Chuckie]

I am looking for an Angus bull. There was one at the Sydenstricker sale that I wish I had of bought. Dun, his milk was 23, BW 2.1 and YW 97. He had the milk quality to pass to his heifers and the yearling weight that would let them get there. There are some upcoming sales in Tennessee in February and March. But that would mean yearling bulls. I am afraid that the man with the five year old bull is holding out for large sums of money. He is more interested in selling than leasing him, and I can't blame him.

 

[Chuckie]

I meant to add that he went for $1700.00 He was a pretty bull.

 

[dun]

I'm not up on the off colored Angus EPDs. Since we don;t use them and don't plan to they've just never mattered that much. But it does sound like a good solid bull if his carcass is also in the same ballpark.
For the cowsthat we breed to produce heifers, we pay attention more to the maternal capabiities then anything else. But tey still have to be decent in the other categories. My only fear of those exceptionally high YW is the possible size of the mature cow. That's why we have bulls that we use as heifer sires and others that we could care less about the maternal traits. ALl we're looking t is weights and carcass qualites. But each breeding progrtam is different, and before I started looking for more milk I'ld look to inprove my forage base. We're already there in that respect, we've got the milk. We
ve got the mature size that in general is within our ballpark. So we're looking at strictlycarcass extremes and for the hiefer sires, in the ballpark of average for the breed.
That's us, and what we need. Every producer needs to look at what they have, and where they want to get to and go from there.
Kind of like the example in that article I posted. The right bull for me isn;t the right bull for the neighbor, or a lot of other people.
I look at it the same way I look at cows. You have to have the foundation and you can really do someting. With a sucks foundation your'e going to constantly be trying to shore things up.

dun

 

[dun]

The last one got too long so I figured I'ld put this in a different post.
I saw 26k bulls sell that I didn;t like near as well as some of the 1000 bulls in the same pen. But they better fit what we are looking for.
In some of the larger sales, it's not unusual for some pretty good bulls to sell later in the sale that will fit the bill for an individual producer as well and maybe better then the higher priced early selling bulls.
At the last large sale I went to, there were a couple of $875 bulls that really looked good, both in person and on paper.

dun

 

[Chuckie]

The last sale I went to, the highest selling yearling bull had it all. The looks and the EPD's to match. But the other high sellers were really good looking bulls, but the BW were too high, and the milk and yearling weights were too low. I guess 15 is an average milk EPD for an Angus, but I want a bull with over 20. Some of these high sellers were closer to 10 and the yearling weights were only average too. I agree that you have to have a good program for it all to come together. Poor prodcucing stock + no feed=no milk=not much calf=no money. I don't care what kind of cow it is, but what sells the best in my area is what the pocket book calls for. Like tractors, some areas of the country, you see John Deere. Then another you see Massey's. The buyer here, wants "Off Colored Angus."

 

[dun]

When I see those really low milk numbers I figure wither someone is using them on some really high milking cows and wants to cut it some, or they had better have knock your eye out carcass numbers, i.e., WW, YW, REA, Marb, FAT, and muscle, lots of muscle.

dun

 

[Jake]

When I see those really low milk numbers I figure wither someone is using them on some really high milking cows and wants to cut it some, or they had better have knock your eye out carcass numbers, i.e., WW, YW, REA, Marb, FAT, and muscle, lots of muscle.

dun

Mill Coulee 423-6807 is a bull just like that, one AWESOME looking animal, tons of muscle and growth, only a 6 frame, and has low milk numbers.