What is hereditary from a cow

[Son of Butch]

Most of the udder.... traits are around 15% heritable so the way you make improvement there is to breed
to the ideal with every mating. You might get lucky and get tons of improvement in one generation
If you breed to ideal long enough you will come out where you want to be.

A proven example that it can and does happen.
Thousands of A.I. sires and hundreds of thousands offspring, before the stars finally aligned for the Holstein breed
to produce Round Oak Rag Apple Elevation a sire that consistently fixed udder problems in one generation.

Bulls have no more genetic influence on udders than cows.
However because bulls have hundreds of more offspring than a cow, the measured results are more reliable
in determining each sire's expected influence (good or bad) on their daughters udders.

 

[Nesikep]

Angus Rocks ask:

1. why is everybody so concerned about getting this bull or that bull if they don't pass some good traits on?

Response: the bull contributes half the chromosomes. In cattle, there are 60 chromosomes. So his spermatozoa will contribute 30 chromosomes to the offspring. If he is a proven bull that has demonstrated that he carries dominant desirable traits, he will have a positive effect on the offspring.

that 30 chromosomes passed from each parent,.. that the statistical average right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in some cases the split may be 20/40 (to get the 60 chromosomes) from one parent or the other.

This leads in to this statement

Most of the udder.... traits are around 15% heritable so the way you make improvement there is to breed
to the ideal with every mating. You might get lucky and get tons of improvement in one generation
If you breed to ideal long enough you will come out where you want to be.

Once in a while you'll get an animal that's a spitting image of one parent despite a very unique other parent.. If you're lucky, you get a calf that just got the best genes each parent had to offer, and you've made some steps forward

And that leads to hetero/homozygous traits, where sometimes you have great animals that have failures for offspring.. Just taking color as an example, a hetero black cow bred to a red bull.. despite the cow having the trait you want, there's only a 50% chance of the offspring being black, and when you do get a black calf from that mating, they will still only have a 50% chance of black calves when bred to red bulls.
Now if the bull is also hetero black, you might be able to make some progress to lock in that black trait.. Now the calf has a 75% chance of being black, but also has a 25% chance of ALWAYS making black calves even when bred to a red bull.. NOW you're making progress
If the bull is homo-black, your odds are 100% for a black calf, and a 50% chance any given calf will ALWAYS have black calves.. If you've identified an animal as homozygous for an important trait, and breed it to other animals that are homozygous for that same trait, you will never stray.

Real life of course is a little more complicated.. Perhaps you want "good udder" gene? but there are no black bulls with that, so you'll have to settle for a red bull that carries (and is homozygous for it preferably) the "good udder" gene.. In this case EVERY one of the first generation offspring will be black and have good udders, but since they are all heterozygous, their offspring will be a very mixed bag.. If you select and breed carefully, you can work yourself back to having both the homozygous black and homozygous "good udder", but it will take time and a lot of effort

 

[Son of Butch]

In cattle, there are 60 chromosomes. So his spermatozoa will contribute 30 chromosomes to the offspring.

If you're lucky, you get a calf that just got the best genes each parent had to offer, and you've made some steps forward

Perhaps you want "good udder" gene? but there are no black bulls with that ...

What are the odds of getting the best chromosomes each parent has to offer in a single mating?
3,600 to 1

Even if you did get the best genes each parent had to offer, IF both parents genes are below breed average then
did you really accomplish any breed progress?

A bit harsh on the assessment of black color gene = no good genes for udders... isn't it?

I'll stick with cow pollinator's advice of mating to ideal will eventually yield the most genetic progress.

 

[Nesikep]

I don't think it's correct to calculate it that way.. you're interested in the best genes, and those (IIRC from biology class 20 year ago) are held in the chromosome.. so one chromosome may have some good genes and some undesirable ones.

I think I was a bit generous saying the black hide is the desireable trait! I had to pick a couple traits for the example.

I definitely agree you should mate to "ideal", but that is subjective, and truthfully it doesn't exist.. the best you can do is mate to the best that's available.
Remember 20-30 years ago when everyone was going for large frames??? Suddenly it went out of style (not surprisingly).. well, back then thankfully there were some animals around that were "below breed average" to bring us back from that craze... I'm sure there's lots more examples like it

 

[Bright Raven]

Nesikep, excerpted from your post:

...that 30 chromosomes passed from each parent,.. that the statistical average right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but in some cases the split may be 20/40 (to get the 60 chromosomes) from one parent or the other.

In cattle where the diploid chromosome number is 60, 30 chromosomes are contributed by the egg and 30 are contributed by the sperm. That is not a statistical function. It is the normal state. There are chapters written in text books on abnormalities in chromosome number. Sometimes chromosomes adhere to their homologue when they line up on the equatorial plate during meiosis, and an extra chromosome is pulled into one of the gametes.

There is never 20 in the egg and 40 in the sperm to reach the diploid number of 60.

 

[Bright Raven]

Angus Rocks

You don't have to be a great breeder or geneticist but there is one rule that can be summed up as follows:

Garbage in = Garbage out

If you want good solid functional cattle, you need a good bull and good cows.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Angus Rocks

You don't have to be a great breeder or geneticist but there is one rule that can be summed up as follows:

Garbage in = Garbage out

If you want good solid functional cattle, you need a good bull and good cows.

Finally a statement I could understand.

 

[Angus Rocks]

Angus Rocks

You don't have to be a great breeder or geneticist but there is one rule that can be summed up as follows:

Garbage in = Garbage out

If you want good solid functional cattle, you need a good bull and good cows.

I am not planning on keeping the cow with the bad udder but she had a heifer calf this year and so that's why I was wondering what was hereditary so your saying if cow has bad udder don't keep calf either? We are keeping plenty of replacement heifers so we can cull our herd harder and get some of the less desirable cows on the road somewhere else

 

[Bright Raven]

Angus Rocks

You don't have to be a great breeder or geneticist but there is one rule that can be summed up as follows:

Garbage in = Garbage out

If you want good solid functional cattle, you need a good bull and good cows.

I am not planning on keeping the cow with the bad udder but she had a heifer calf this year and so that's why I was wondering what was hereditary so your saying if cow has bad udder don't keep calf either? We are keeping plenty of replacement heifers so we can cull our herd harder and get some of the less desirable cows on the road somewhere else

I would not keep the calf if the mother had a poor udder. Especially if the udder is non-functional versus just looking bad.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

It really doesn't make any difference what the grand-dam or siblings are like. The point is, your cow has a bad udder (a known fact to you) and the chances of her passing it on to her daughters is "probable". Why risk a 2-year investment in a female (daughter) with the potential of ending up with another bad uddered cow? You want to keep offspring from two parents that have all the traits you are looking for. No cow or bull is PERFECT, but you want to start your program with qualities you can make money with.

 

[Angus Rocks]

Here is a pic of the cow and the bad udder trying get a better pic I took but its not loading right now

 

[Nesikep]

Has she had mastitis or something before that would have caused her to lose the production of the front quarters? If it was caused by mastitis and she raises a good calf anyhow, I could perhaps take a gamble on that.. if that's just the way she is, not a chance
I do consider that bad, not because it just looks bad, but because it affects functionality.

I'm a tit guy.. a total sucker for a nice set of 'em
Here's a 16 year old cow


10 year old daughter's udder (poke yer eyes out on them!)


granddaughter with great granddaughter


It's definitely hereditary, and I've found it typically takes about 3 generations to get from a bad udder to something good.. don't ask how I know

 

[elkwc]

Has she had mastitis or something before that would have caused her to lose the production of the front quarters? If it was caused by mastitis and she raises a good calf anyhow, I could perhaps take a gamble on that.. if that's just the way she is, not a chance
I do consider that bad, not because it just looks bad, but because it affects functionality.

I'm a tit guy.. a total sucker for a nice set of 'em
Here's a 16 year old cow


10 year old daughter's udder (poke yer eyes out on them!)


granddaughter with great granddaughter


It's definitely hereditary, and I've found it typically takes about 3 generations to get from a bad udder to something good.. don't ask how I know

Nesi how long to improve milk production if they have an excellent bag?

 

[Nesikep]

I'm not sure, but I think you can do that more easiliy.. there are EPD's for that. I think it's easier to breed milk into the herd that bad udders out of it.. unless they're REALLY short of milk, they're still productive animals, even if not ideal, but bad udders are either a whole lot of work for you, or a cull.

Here's a cow that comes from a long line of bad udders... I'm not that fond of hers, and she's a blockhead, so I often have fun at calving time with her (this year it was a blizzard and 3 am of course) but you should have seen her great-grandma's (An old school Sim Fleck /Herf cow).. She certainly has a ton of milk though. (Same sire as the "daughter" pictured above)


This cow is one I saw at the sale barn.. I probably wouldn't like her feed bill, but I bet she could raise a couple calves right.. nice looking cow too and a good udder for the size of it

 

[Angus Rocks]

I don't know her past history I bought her in December and first year with her but calf seems to be doing fine on the front half the rest of the cows I got from this guy got good udders. When I milked out the back there wasn't a problem with it I thought maybe when the calf got a little older it would match on to the back but hasn't happened yet

 

[Boot Jack Bulls]

We have an old Limi cow who many would have culled for a poor bag, but she is still here. She was purchased at the side of her dam (continued to produce and raise good calves for several more years unassisted), who had a horrible udder. The kicker is, the calf turned into an awesome cow that only had udder issues after a severe case of frost bite at 10 years old. She only has one functional teat this spring, but is nursing a nice black heifer calf just fine. That cow also now has several daughters and granddaughters in production that have perfect udders. The point is, if you are just starting out, a cow with a manageable poor udder, may be a inexpensive way to get genetics. Just remember to always breed her with that consideration in mind, and don't be afraid to cull her and offspring if the issue persists despite careful breeding selections.

 

[Angus Rocks]

Well I might be dumb but if heifer calf looks good when it's time to say replacement or not I'm of the mind now she isnt going to get kicked out because of moms udder. From what you guys are saying there is a 50% chance that the bulls genes will come thru and change it on the calf

 

[Nesikep]

can always give it a try