What Color Is This Calf?

[M.Magis]

I don't believe the point of 4-H is to separate kids depending on what kind of animals they can afford. I thought 4-H was supposed to be training kids in how to become future farmers with real animals that are actually used on farms.

If I'm wrong... then there is something wrong with how 4-H has evolved over time.

That has nothing to do with whether its a scam or not. Its a market that exists, whether you agree with it or not.

 

[simme]

The 4-H and FFA organizations are not the drivers here. The same basic issues are present in youth sports, dance, cheer, and other such competitive activities. The families choose their hobbies and decide how to spend their money.

Money spent - sky is the limit if the bank account and anxiety tolerance can support it. Time spent - 10 hours per week won't be close to what is spent. The price of admission can be pretty high - fancy truck, fancy trailer, fancy equipment. Lots of choices to be made. And a lifetime to reap the benefits or regrets of those choices. Most every parent wants their kids to have more/better opportunity than they had. That is the driver.

 

[Travlr]

The 4-H and FFA organizations are not the drivers here. The same basic issues are present in youth sports, dance, cheer, and other such competitive activities. The families choose their hobbies and decide how to spend their money.

Money spent - sky is the limit if the bank account and anxiety tolerance can support it. Time spent - 10 hours per week won't be close to what is spent. The price of admission can be pretty high - fancy truck, fancy trailer, fancy equipment. Lots of choices to be made. And a lifetime to reap the benefits or regrets of those choices. Most every parent wants their kids to have more/better opportunity than they had. That is the driver.

Well somebody choses judges that make choices based on names and money spent... instead of the effort that kids put into their animals.
And of course, judges can't be expected to be clairvoyant...

 

[Travlr]

That has nothing to do with whether its a scam or not. Its a market that exists, whether you agree with it or not.

Its hardly a scam as long as people know what they're buying. And the people calling about $800 piglets know exactly what they're looking for.

It's a scam if parents are buying trophies for their kids... and honest effort by kids without the means is denied.

 

[Ky hills]

I don't believe the point of 4-H is to separate kids depending on what kind of animals they can afford. I thought 4-H was supposed to be training kids in how to become future farmers with real animals that are actually used on farms.

If I'm wrong... then there is something wrong with how 4-H has evolved over time.

I don't the that's the intended point of 4H or FFA at all. The problem is greed ,money, and a market created to cater to a fictional narrative.
I've always said the show ring was a different world than the pasture. Some people will disagree and say that their cattle work in the pasture and I don't deny that they are right, but that is absolutely not the situation with a lot of of show cattle, be it club calves or purebred cattle bred for their own breed shows.
When I was in with registered Charolaismany years ago, I remember going to a big name breeders sale and walking through looking at some of the sale cattle that were in a barn with part of their show string. I remember being confused at first when I saw what looked like a big and I mean big heifer and a young looking heifer calf in a stall with a Holstein cow. Upon further inspection I learned that that big heifer with no sign of having milk was the calf's mother and concluded that the calf was nursing the Holstein. Saw another similar situation with a Holstein cow in with another show string pair in the next stall.
I had bought a bull from that outfit. An ET calf who's sire was a National Grand Champion bull and the dam was a a reserve National Champion female.
I learned why those Holsteins were needed, those females if and if is the operative word, if they got bred and had a calf, they would not milk at all, and if they did have milk it was not nearly enough. Most of them wouldn't even form an udder.
Around that time that one bloodline dominated the show scene and everybody thought that was the kind to have.
Prior to that I had a regional sales promoter looking at my herd and I had heavy milking moderate framed for the time Charolais cows. They didn't have the flashy pedigrees but did have years of selection from longtime registered breeders in their pedigrees. Sales promoter said that I needed nationally recognized cattle in the pedigrees, so I bought the aforementioned bull. Biggest mistake I could have made was to follow that show world, when I wasn't showing and was not about that.
I look and see show bred cattle now of the Angus and Hereford breeds, and can't imagine who would want those funny looking things. It's a good thing that Angus have so many different breeders and that the show ring isn't a factor at all to many of them.
I wish I could say the same of Herefords, they seem to focus on that a lot more than I believe they should.
I have no issues at all with showing cattle. It's a way to advertise, and showcase your cattle,
Its a great activity for children and young people. It teaches responsibility, work ethic and so many life lessons along the way.
What I don't like is the separation between show ring and real world cattle, as well as other animals.
When I see certain prefixes associated with an Angus or Hereford I immediately write that animal off, I can almost always see the difference even before looking at the breeder name though.
I think the hair thing is crazy, we want cattle to be slick haired as early as possible here. Most of mine are slick now, and the ones that aren't all they shedded off are well on the way to it.
The trends of breeding cattle to be short and thick are also taken too far. They need some frame to go along with thickness but need to avoid extremes all the way around.
One other thing that isn't talked about much is the disposition that a lot of those club calf bulls have and pass in to their offspring. I've heard many stories of overly aggressive steers and calves.

 

[Travlr]

I don't the that's the intended point of 4H or FFA at all. The problem is greed ,money, and a market created to cater to a fictional narrative.
I've always said the show ring was a different world than the pasture. Some people will disagree and say that their cattle work in the pasture and I don't deny that they are right, but that is absolutely not the situation with a lot of of show cattle, be it club calves or purebred cattle bred for their own breed shows.
When I was in with registered Charolaismany years ago, I remember going to a big name breeders sale and walking through looking at some of the sale cattle that were in a barn with part of their show string. I remember being confused at first when I saw what looked like a big and I mean big heifer and a young looking heifer calf in a stall with a Holstein cow. Upon further inspection I learned that that big heifer with no sign of having milk was the calf's mother and concluded that the calf was nursing the Holstein. Saw another similar situation with a Holstein cow in with another show string pair in the next stall.
I had bought a bull from that outfit. An ET calf who's sire was a National Grand Champion bull and the dam was a a reserve National Champion female.
I learned why those Holsteins were needed, those females if and if is the operative word, if they got bred and had a calf, they would not milk at all, and if they did have milk it was not nearly enough. Most of them wouldn't even form an udder.
Around that time that one bloodline dominated the show scene and everybody thought that was the kind to have.
Prior to that I had a regional sales promoter looking at my herd and I had heavy milking moderate framed for the time Charolais cows. They didn't have the flashy pedigrees but did have years of selection from longtime registered breeders in their pedigrees. Sales promoter said that I needed nationally recognized cattle in the pedigrees, so I bought the aforementioned bull. Biggest mistake I could have made was to follow that show world, when I wasn't showing and was not about that.
I look and see show bred cattle now of the Angus and Hereford breeds, and can't imagine who would want those funny looking things. It's a good thing that Angus have so many different breeders and that the show ring isn't a factor at all to many of them.
I wish I could say the same of Herefords, they seem to focus on that a lot more than I believe they should.
I have no issues at all with showing cattle. It's a way to advertise, and showcase your cattle,
Its a great activity for children and young people. It teaches responsibility, work ethic and so many life lessons along the way.
What I don't like is the separation between show ring and real world cattle, as well as other animals.
When I see certain prefixes associated with an Angus or Hereford I immediately write that animal off, I can almost always see the difference even before looking at the breeder name though.
I think the hair thing is crazy, we want cattle to be slick haired as early as possible here. Most of mine are slick now, and the ones that aren't all they shedded off are well on the way to it.
The trends of breeding cattle to be short and thick are also taken too far. They need some frame to go along with thickness but need to avoid extremes all the way around.
One other thing that isn't talked about much is the disposition that a lot of those club calf bulls have and pass in to their offspring. I've heard many stories of overly aggressive steers and calves.

We should be judges... If there were judges with a priority on real world useful cattle the show world would benefit the real world.

 

[GoWyo]

Well somebody choses judges that make choices based on names and money spent... instead of the effort that kids put into their animals.
And of course, judges can't be expected to be clairvoyant...

The fact is that it is a "show" and there is a general type of calf that can win. The amount of time spent on a calf will show at the show. I have seen parents/kids buy a steer that would have competed very well at every jackpot and the county fair had it been worked and managed properly and it failed because they didn't put in the time and effort. We always really liked to go after showmanship because that shows if the work was done at home. We also favored showing breeding heifers because they did not need to be freaky to win. My kid was out every morning feeding, rinsing and blowing out his calves, put them in the cool room, check on them throughout the day, and do it all over in the evening plus work on showmanship. I often didn't agree with judges, but tried to see what they were looking for and then see if they were consistent from class to class. Usually the more "ideal" cattle would win. Sometimes we could see the politics. The whole show thing resembled real life. Our goal was to get out and compete and for my kid to make some money at the end of the summer with the county fair sale. When he graduated he had a substantial sum of money in savings to start college with. That money came from the community businesses that supported the county fair sale. My kid also had a few head of cows that were old show heifers whose calves helped fund his college years. You get out of it what you put into it and learn a lot about life watching the other folks at the shows.

 

[simme]

We should be judges... If there were judges with a priority on real world useful cattle the show world would benefit the real world.

Way easier said than done, I think. What the judge sees is what they have to work with. Most cattle in the show ring have not had a "real world" life. They have been highly pampered from birth. A few maybe raised on a nurse cow, maybe spent hours daily in a cool box, most certainly been fed and managed different than the "real world" cattle. How would a judge separate out the "real world" traits from a group that is not from the real world?

Fertility, longevity, mothering - those are "real world" traits. What does a judge look for to find those traits in a pampered group?

Volunteer to be the cattle judge in your local area. Might be tougher than expected. Probably won't make many friends.

 

[mwj]

Club calves and real world cattle is like going to a car show to decide how to repaint your work truck!

 

[TexasJerseyMilker]

In Coos County Oregon working farm people generally don't have a lot of money and $800 is a lot of money. Word is, the $800 pigs don't win the hog class more than any other.

The hog classes are pretty hilarious to watch. Each kid carries a popper whip and a half sheet of plywood with a handle. They try to maneuver the pig for the judges best advantage. This causes crowding of contestants and squealing fights break out. Here are the kids are dressed in immaculate white running around trying to jam the plywood between fighting hogs.

 

[AmandaQ]

We should be judges... If there were judges with a priority on real world useful cattle the show world would benefit the real world.

Travlr, you probably should be a judge but woe to the child that needs a talking to with their hair blown dry squatty fancy pants cow!

 

[redcowsrule33]

It's been this way for a long time. When I showed in the 80's the club calf guys peddled 9 frame chianina crosses selling for over $3,000 just for local shows. I still enjoyed showing and was able to win Reserve one year with a homegrown steer from our commercial herd. The families that raised cattle for a living rooted for and supported each other.
I learned that life isn't fair, politics aren't fair, and to take pride in what you decide to do. Not bad lessons. A lot of kids could use those lessons today.