What bull over Gertz cows

[Warren Allison]

Those are good choices, but for size, muscling, and carcass I'd go with a homo for black Limousin, at least as likely as a Sim. I'd never intentionally breed for red terminal calves. And I have never had a Char that performed. A personal bias, maybe, but based in my own experience.

I wouldn't intentionally breed for red terminal calves, either. I just mentioned the red Charolais because he said he preferred red cattle. I haven't seen a red Char x Beefmaster, but I have seen some red Char x Santa Gertrudis and red Char x red Brangus, and these were about as good a heifers as I have ever seen. Almost made me want to join your anti-CAB campaign!

I got my fill of Charolais in the late 60's -early 70's, when the Charolais (and Simmental) first came down here, and those pallet-headed cow-killer Char and Simm bulls nearly wiped out 25% of the belt-buckle tall Angus and Herefords we had back then. Later on, when people stared breeding Charolais x Simmental, they made some real nice cows. that raised big calves...even when bred to Angus and Hereford bulls. I have always said the only thing a Char bull was fit for, was to really increase the athleticism of bucking bulls...which they DO. But most people say that Charolais really puts the growth on their commercial calves, and from what I have seen, they surely do. That's why you see smokies , creams, etc at the sale. People say the extra pounds due to the growth makes up for not getting a CAB premium. Looks like out west, Char bulls are what a lot of people breed their roan, spotted and paint Corriente cows too. You get faded-out roan, spotted, and painted calves! LOL. But, this past fall and winter when I was buying up some more Corrientes, I had to get some with a Char calf or bred to a Char. A couple of groups were pairs that had both Angus and Char calves, and the Char calves of the same age, were noticeably bigger than the Angus calves. I think a lot of people on here swear by Charolais for growth. My biggest problem with Chars now days, is that damned dilute gene, but I think red Charolais will alleviate that problem.

25 or 30 years ago, people around here got on a Limousin fad for a couple of years, and the biggest complaint I ever heard was about disposition. I have caught a few and hauled a few, and bought or sold a few for folks, but I have never had any long enough to say anything about their temperament. Have you fooled with Limms a lot? And how long has it been since you have had any Charolais?

 

[Travlr]

I have seen some red Char x Santa Gertrudis and red Char x red Brangus, and these were about as good a heifers as I have ever seen. Almost made me want to join your anti-CAB campaign!

So again... it's nothing against the breed, just that the (brilliant) marketing has hurt the industry.

I got my fill of Charolais in the late 60's -early 70's, when the Charolais (and Simmental) first came down here, and those pallet-headed cow-killer Char and Simm bulls nearly wiped out 25% of the belt-buckle tall Angus and Herefords we had back then.

Yeah, I remember those days.

But most people say that Charolais really puts the growth on their commercial calves, and from what I have seen, they surely do. That's why you see smokies , creams, etc at the sale. People say the extra pounds due to the growth makes up for not getting a CAB premium. My biggest problem with Chars now days, is that damned dilute gene, but I think red Charolais will alleviate that problem.

Yup, and I get that.

25 or 30 years ago, people around here got on a Limousin fad for a couple of years, and the biggest complaint I ever heard was about disposition. I have caught a few and hauled a few, and bought or sold a few for folks, but I have never had any long enough to say anything about their temperament.

Yeah, I know about the disposition fear... but have never seen it as a problem. In the eighties there was a single bull (Wish I could remember his name, but I never had any of his bloodline.) that was probably the most popular bull at the time, and he threw absolutely beautiful calves that made great looking cows. But his second generation calves became known for their bad dispositions. I mean, they were out-of-control, nasty... dangerous animals. My animals came out of O'Brian Farms that was using a foundation sire, Rousseau, and he was a gentle giant and threw docile offspring, and as far as I've ever heard the succeeding generations were all docile... unless they were mixed with the popular bull that had nutcase second generation offspring. So all of my experience with Lims is positive for disposition. The biggest fault in Lims, from what I've actually experienced first hand, is that they have those udders that come to a narrow, pointy floor and all their teats look like they are coming out of the same hole. But they fed growthy calves, so it wasn't as much function as esthetics.

Have you fooled with Limms a lot? And how long has it been since you have had any Charolais?

Yeah, I prefer Lims, but I've had plenty of Angus and used Angus bulls. I don't like Angus dispositions as much. Angus seem a lot like cats to me. They are fine as long as you give them what they want, but they are always ready to strike out and they hold a grudge. I haven't had a lot of Char, but those that I've had were always objectionable in some way. Since we're talking about docility, the worst man killer I've ever owned was a Char/Angus cross that I made the mistake of buying through the sale barn, and she went back a week later and I was glad to be rid of her.

 

[Ky hills]

Back in the 80's early 90's I ran a herd of registered Charolais. At that time I always said my main competition wasn't other Charolais breeders it was Limousins. They were very popular but then got a reputation for being crazy.
@Travlr I don't know if it's the bull you are talking about, but I've heard some stories about one of the first maybe the first Limousin bull imported named Prince Pompador (not sure of spelling). Heard he got dehorned on the first day after wallerin somebody around.
I've only had one purebred Limousin bull. Bought around him 2015 or 16 from a regional breeder that used to show cattle years ago, Went to look at the bulls intending to get a black bull, but when looking through them, a red looked the best to me. That red Limousin bull was bar none the most docile best natured bull I've ever had of any breed including Herefords which other people claim to be so docile.
His calves were pretty well docile too, no memorable troublemakers.
That said when buying feeder calves we call them here, I've gotten some Limousin calves that went from one extreme to the other. I bought I group of 500 some pound Limousin heifer calves both black and red. On bringing them in a couple of them commenced to jumping over stall gates in the barn, and I took a few of them back to resell about as fast as I could. The ones that acted halfway decent I kept and the worst of those simmered down within my management.
They all sold as part of a larger group later. Kinda always wished I'd a kept a few of those to see how they'd a done as cows.
As far as Charolais disposition, they always had a reputation for being aggressive and crazy, but I found that to be an individual thing and not representative of the breed at time I had them. Most of my cows and bulls both were docile and easy going. I had several cows that would let a person pet them out in the field. Could even milk a few of them loose just occupy them with some feed and they just stood and ate.
Most of mine milked really well too, with the exception of some show bloodlines of the time.
Over the years I did get a hold of a few crazy cows. One cow I had and sold pretty fast would take off running whenever she saw a person.Had one that would flat out maul anybody when she had a calf, she'd come after you from a longways off, had a BWF like that too.
I like your description @Travlr about Angus being like cats, that's a good assessment. I've always tried to be real careful when buying Angus to select seemingly calm cattle. They can have a different turn to them. I've been fortunate with Angus bulls, most I've had were pretty good natured and I've gotten along with them pretty well. Some of the craziest cows and some of the best I've had have been Angus.

 

[Travlr]

Back in the 80's early 90's I ran a herd of registered Charolais. At that time I always said my main competition wasn't other Charolais breeders it was Limousins. They were very popular but then got a reputation for being crazy.
@Travlr I don't know if it's the bull you are talking about, but I've heard some stories about one of the first maybe the first Limousin bull imported named Prince Pompador (not sure of spelling). Heard he got dehorned on the first day after wallerin somebody around.
I've only had one purebred Limousin bull. Bought around him 2015 or 16 from a regional breeder that used to show cattle years ago, Went to look at the bulls intending to get a black bull, but when looking through them, a red looked the best to me. That red Limousin bull was bar none the most docile best natured bull I've ever had of any breed including Herefords which other people claim to be so docile.
His calves were pretty well docile too, no memorable troublemakers.
That said when buying feeder calves we call them here, I've gotten some Limousin calves that went from one extreme to the other. I bought I group of 500 some pound Limousin heifer calves both black and red. On bringing them in a couple of them commenced to jumping over stall gates in the barn, and I took a few of them back to resell about as fast as I could. The ones that acted halfway decent I kept and the worst of those simmered down within my management.
They all sold as part of a larger group later. Kinda always wished I'd a kept a few of those to see how they'd a done as cows.
As far as Charolais disposition, they always had a reputation for being aggressive and crazy, but I found that to be an individual thing and not representative of the breed at time I had them. Most of my cows and bulls both were docile and easy going. I had several cows that would let a person pet them out in the field. Could even milk a few of them loose just occupy them with some feed and they just stood and ate.
Most of mine milked really well too, with the exception of some show bloodlines of the time.
Over the years I did get a hold of a few crazy cows. One cow I had and sold pretty fast would take off running whenever she saw a person.Had one that would flat out maul anybody when she had a calf, she'd come after you from a longways off, had a BWF like that too.
I like your description @Travlr about Angus being like cats, that's a good assessment. I've always tried to be real careful when buying Angus to select seemingly calm cattle. They can have a different turn to them. I've been fortunate with Angus bulls, most I've had were pretty good natured and I've gotten along with them pretty well. Some of the craziest cows and some of the best I've had have been Angus.

I worked for a guy in Arkansas that had the best cattle I've ever seen. I've mentioned him before. He had Santa Gertrudis. BIG cattle, and I bought some of the heifers from him when he did some experimental crossbreeding. One day I saw a beautiful, young bull in a trailer and asked the guy driving about where the bull was being delivered. "He's going to (the local processor) to be hamburger." I knew the bulls from this place, and they never kept any for sale that weren't worth a hundred thousand or close to it. The guy told me that they'd had problems with this bull and a few days before they had all the bulls lined up in a chute to be worked and he was third in line behind two others the same size... and they had a one ton flatbed dually in front of the headgate in case a bull wanted to push through. This bull with the attitude decided he wanted out... and he pushed the two bulls in front of him and the closed headgate and the truck out of his way. The boss was there and he told them to call the processor and schedule a date ASAP. Ya gotta admire a guy that will send a 100K bull to be made into hamburger because he took his reputation seriously. I was told that this particular bull was expected to bring upwards of 130K. If I remember he was close to two years old and 2600 pounds.
I tried looking up the place I worked a while back and found out it was out of business. The old man had an airport with three business jets (and pilots) to deliver baby chicks worldwide for breeding meat birds. He processed his own birds in a processing plant he owned, had a bunch of private contractors growing chickens for him, and he put roughly 18K steers in feedlots every year. Big money. But when he died the son-in-law made some seriously bad decisions in a short time and it all collapsed. Really a shame. The place was called Peterson Industries in Decatur, Arkansas.

 

[mwj]

I worked for a guy in Arkansas that had the best cattle I've ever seen. I've mentioned him before. He had Santa Gertrudis. BIG cattle, and I bought some of the heifers from him when he did some experimental crossbreeding. One day I saw a beautiful, young bull in a trailer and asked the guy driving about where the bull was being delivered. "He's going to (the local processor) to be hamburger." I knew the bulls from this place, and they never kept any for sale that weren't worth a hundred thousand or close to it. The guy told me that they'd had problems with this bull and a few days before they had all the bulls lined up in a chute to be worked and he was third in line behind two others the same size... and they had a one ton flatbed dually in front of the headgate in case a bull wanted to push through. This bull with the attitude decided he wanted out... and he pushed the two bulls in front of him and the closed headgate and the truck out of his way. The boss was there and he told them to call the processor and schedule a date ASAP. Ya gotta admire a guy that will send a 100K bull to be made into hamburger because he took his reputation seriously. I was told that this particular bull was expected to bring upwards of 130K. If I remember he was close to two years old and 2600 pounds.
I tried looking up the place I worked a while back and found out it was out of business. The old man had an airport with three business jets (and pilots) to deliver baby chicks worldwide for breeding meat birds. He processed his own birds in a processing plant he owned, had a bunch of private contractors growing chickens for him, and he put roughly 18K steers in feedlots every year. Big money. But when he died the son-in-law made some seriously bad decisions in a short time and it all collapsed. Really a shame. The place was called Peterson Industries in Decatur, Arkansas.

Do you remember winrock farms at Morilton? That was my first thought.

 

[Travlr]

Do you remember winrock farms at Morilton? That was my first thought.

I stuck to northern Arkansas, only going to Little Rock once, so I probably drove through Morrilton once. Don't remember Winrock Farms.

 

[mwj]

I stuck to northern Arkansas, only going to Little Rock once, so I probably drove through Morrilton once. Don't remember Winrock Farms.

Governor of Arkansas Winthrop Rockefeller. Basic old money and he spent a wad on cattle and facilitates. Was a real showplace. I am sure that it lives online in some form.

 

[Travlr]

Governor of Arkansas Winthrop Rockefeller. Basic old money and he spent a wad on cattle and facilitates. Was a real showplace. I am sure that it lives online in some form.

A lot of great places have bit the dust... and not many being cultivated to replace them.