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Here's a history of red Charolais from. Charolais breeder's website.
When I had registered Charolais, around 30 years ago, it was rare but not unheard of to have a reddish calf born. I had one born that looked a lot color wise like the calf pictured beside the cow in the list of pictures. My calf wasn't as muscular as that calf and was and she was maybe a shade darker or deeper red than that one pictured but still pretty close.
I remember back then there was a controversy over a particular Canadian Charolais bull that was so dark red that the AICA didn't allow him in their registry because some of the pictures sent into the association were said to have looked like the bull was black, the rebuttal was that it was lighting. I agree that it was lighting as I'd seen pictures of the bull in publications and he was definitely red albeit very dark but certainly not black.
Darker and deeper red than a Limousin, I'd say maybe comparable to a dark red shorthorn.
I saw several animals at shows and sales that were light red.
 
Here's a history of red Charolais from. Charolais breeder's website.
When I had registered Charolais, around 30 years ago, it was rare but not unheard of to have a reddish calf born. I had one born that looked a lot color wise like the calf pictured beside the cow in the list of pictures. My calf wasn't as muscular as that calf and was and she was maybe a shade darker or deeper red than that one pictured but still pretty close.
I remember back then there was a controversy over a particular Canadian Charolais bull that was so dark red that the AICA didn't allow him in their registry because some of the pictures sent into the association were said to have looked like the bull was black, the rebuttal was that it was lighting. I agree that it was lighting as I'd seen pictures of the bull in publications and he was definitely red albeit very dark but certainly not black.
Darker and deeper red than a Limousin, I'd say maybe comparable to a dark red shorthorn.
I saw several animals at shows and sales that were light red.
One of our neighbors was a die hard Char guy. He has passed now. He had a few of the reddish cows. His weren't the dark red like those pics. Pink is not the right description but like a rosy color. I'm not well versed in colors.
 
Here's a history of red Charolais from. Charolais breeder's website.
When I had registered Charolais, around 30 years ago, it was rare but not unheard of to have a reddish calf born. I had one born that looked a lot color wise like the calf pictured beside the cow in the list of pictures. My calf wasn't as muscular as that calf and was and she was maybe a shade darker or deeper red than that one pictured but still pretty close.
I remember back then there was a controversy over a particular Canadian Charolais bull that was so dark red that the AICA didn't allow him in their registry because some of the pictures sent into the association were said to have looked like the bull was black, the rebuttal was that it was lighting. I agree that it was lighting as I'd seen pictures of the bull in publications and he was definitely red albeit very dark but certainly not black.
Darker and deeper red than a Limousin, I'd say maybe comparable to a dark red shorthorn.
I saw several animals at shows and sales that were light red.
Yes, there are light red ones that carry one copy of the dilute gene. These will be heterazygous for red. A bull like that could pass on a red gene or dilute gene to its calves. Those dark red ones will be listed as homozygous for red. Since red is recessive, red is the only color they can pass. Which makes them an ideal choice for homo for black cattle. All the calves will be black. When I first got an order for some cows or heifers, I didn't have a lot of choices of breeders in the US. I got those in Missouri. Now, I can find a lot more. Or at least a lot more places that advertise breeding for them. Only thing is I couldn't find any commercial red Charolais. I guess right now, everyone is breeding seed stock. There may be some in Canada, though.
 
One of our neighbors was a die hard Char guy. He has passed now. He had a few of the reddish cows. His weren't the dark red like those pics. Pink is not the right description but like a rosy color. I'm not well versed in colors.
Well, in your defense, men only see about six colors. I just confirmed with my wife that the color you must be talking about is "mauve":LOL:
 
Well, in your defense, men only see about six colors. I just confirmed with my wife that the color you must be talking about is "mauve":LOL:
Remember that thing a while back when some girl had a dress that everyone first thought was gold and white the first time they saw it... and after seeing it a few times the dress became black and blue?
I have a knit hat that my daughter made for me and it was brown a few times I wore it... and then suddenly it turned dark purple. My wife still thinks it is brown.
 
Remember that thing a while back when some girl had a dress that everyone first thought was gold and white the first time they saw it... and after seeing it a few times the dress became black and blue?
I have a knit hat that my daughter made for me and it was brown a few times I wore it... and then suddenly it turned dark purple. My wife still thinks it is brown.
The introduction to "new" colors has a similar effect as music for me; I can remember where I was and what I was doing.
I still don't know how to spell the color, but I remember the girl. Cacky was her name.
 
Warren is right. The ability of Charolais bulls to dilute their calves was, for years, an asset. That diluted color represented increased growth. Over time, that increased growth has fallen out of favor, along with elimination from CAB. The red Charolais, without the dilutor gene, would allow them to breed true for color of the dams, either red or black, as homo or heter would dictate. I currently use white Charolais bulls on 300 multibreed, multicolored cows. They produce terminal cross calves. All go to market. I'm looking for growth. The Charolais bulls have given me that, in spades. Recently, I have started looking for Black Simmental bulls that would give me the same growth as Charolais, but in a black hide. Those bulls are harder to find and cost more in Central Alabama. But the black hide premium could make the effort and expense worth the trouble. My concern, as mentioned before, is that the gene pool for homozygous red Charolais is so small, that selection for production traits is hindered. Just like in dogs or horses, if it looks like what we want, that is enough. That is not what should drive our industry.
 
Warren is right. The ability of Charolais bulls to dilute their calves was, for years, an asset. That diluted color represented increased growth. Over time, that increased growth has fallen out of favor, along with elimination from CAB. The red Charolais, without the dilutor gene, would allow them to breed true for color of the dams, either red or black, as homo or heter would dictate. I currently use white Charolais bulls on 300 multibreed, multicolored cows. They produce terminal cross calves. All go to market. I'm looking for growth. The Charolais bulls have given me that, in spades. Recently, I have started looking for Black Simmental bulls that would give me the same growth as Charolais, but in a black hide. Those bulls are harder to find and cost more in Central Alabama. But the black hide premium could make the effort and expense worth the trouble. My concern, as mentioned before, is that the gene pool for homozygous red Charolais is so small, that selection for production traits is hindered. Just like in dogs or horses, if it looks like what we want, that is enough. That is not what should drive our industry.
If I was using bulls to get terminal calves I'd strongly suggest using my best homozygous black whatever-breed cows to produce my own home grown homozygous bulls. If all calves are terminal, then I don't need to worry about the things a specific breed brings to heifer replacements. With 300 cows producing terminal calves I'd be buying one good homozygous black bull and using it on 30 of the best cows to make the bulls I'd need for the rest of the cows.
I've used home grown bulls, and the differences in what I get from a bull I'd buy was... nothing. Of course the people that sell bulls would never admit that, but a 5/6 thousand dollar bull is really pretty average in most cases.
 
@Newrancher2020 Your location says Southeast Texas. You need a Black Angus bull to knock the ear off and paint them black to get the highs at the auction barn. Red Angus obviously works (per the KR), as does real, red Herefords. You will lose a little on the red steers but if the quality is good it will be minimal. The heifers will do good to keep or even sell. The red on the females may make up for the dock on the steers.

This aint Georgia, pink Chars and Corriente cattle won't get it done. Good luck finding that stuff that will hold up in your area, also. Remember, "the breed" don't make **** if it won't work in your environment and operation.
 
Warren is right. The ability of Charolais bulls to dilute their calves was, for years, an asset. That diluted color represented increased growth. Over time, that increased growth has fallen out of favor, along with elimination from CAB. The red Charolais, without the dilutor gene, would allow them to breed true for color of the dams, either red or black, as homo or heter would dictate. I currently use white Charolais bulls on 300 multibreed, multicolored cows. They produce terminal cross calves. All go to market. I'm looking for growth. The Charolais bulls have given me that, in spades. Recently, I have started looking for Black Simmental bulls that would give me the same growth as Charolais, but in a black hide. Those bulls are harder to find and cost more in Central Alabama. But the black hide premium could make the effort and expense worth the trouble. My concern, as mentioned before, is that the gene pool for homozygous red Charolais is so small, that selection for production traits is hindered. Just like in dogs or horses, if it looks like what we want, that is enough. That is not what should drive our industry.
Actually, the red Charolais in Europe are as plentiful as dilute ones, and this is what is being brought to Canada. And semen from Europe and Canada is what is being used here. Probably a lot more genetic diversity in red ones, than American white ones. Or at least as much. And only white ones throw rat tails. I think in less than 10 years, you gonna see the majority of the Charolais here be red.

Lot of good Simmental producers in Alabama. Gibbs ranch has a production sale or 2 each year, and there is a big 7-member ranch alliance in Alabama that has a sale at Troy every year.

Got a friend in south Ga that has Brangus herd. He is breeding half to a homo for black and polled SImmental and half to a red Charolais. He said the Simm calves will be 100+ lbs at birth, and the Charolais 100 lbs or less at birth. He figures 20 lbs average difference, But he said at 6 mos weaning time, the Char calves have caught the Simms, and even sometimes weigh a little more. He got his red Char bull at a sale in South Carolina near Augusta, I think. Where in Alabama are you? You ought to go back in your profile and add your location.
 
Gotta wonder if you are really the cattle buyer/order filler you claim to be. (Among other things.)
Well, I wouldn't wonder about it too awful much if I was you, Travlr. I doubt you are going to be needing someone to help you buy or sell cattle anytime soon. and even if you were, I for sure wouldn't want to fool with you anyhow. So let not your mind be troubled.
 
Well, I wouldn't wonder about it too awful much if I was you, Travlr. I doubt you are going to be needing someone to help you buy or sell cattle anytime soon. and even if you were, I for sure wouldn't want to fool with you anyhow. So let not your mind be troubled.
Just be the man you want everyone to think you are, Warren. Starting with being honest. Then there won't be any problem.
 
Gotta wonder if you are really the cattle buyer/order filler you claim to be. (Among other things.)
He just sees all the same stuff on FB and online that we all see and tries to act like he can get his hands on special cattle for you. Google can get you the same cattle he can.
 
Getting beck to the original question, I recommend
I recently sold my bull and am looking to put a new bull on my cows. I was thinking red angus, or char. What's y'all's thought last or is there a better bull to use.

When you asked at https://www.cattletoday.com/threads/crossbreeds.134247/, I recommended Herefords. I haven't changed my mind.

I didn't bother replying when you asked the same question at https://www.cattletoday.com/threads/crossbreed.134246/#post-1886444.
 
Travlr, I agree with you almost all of the time, but look back at what you wrote. The whole purpose of a terminal herd is to provide a third breed in the sire to give the growth that's not in the base cowherd. To provide size, muscling and carcass that the cows don't have. If I use a bull taken from a small selection of cows that were selected for maternal traits, surely I am diluting genes compared to outside purebred producers who are using cows and bulls designed for my growth requirements. Totally agree with your plan for homeraised bulls in a maternal herd, where replacements are retained, but a terminal herd is totally different. Keep up the good work!
 
Travlr, I agree with you almost all of the time, but look back at what you wrote. The whole purpose of a terminal herd is to provide a third breed in the sire to give the growth that's not in the base cowherd. To provide size, muscling and carcass that the cows don't have. If I use a bull taken from a small selection of cows that were selected for maternal traits, surely I am diluting genes compared to outside purebred producers who are using cows and bulls designed for my growth requirements. Totally agree with your plan for homeraised bulls in a maternal herd, where replacements are retained, but a terminal herd is totally different. Keep up the good work!
Yu are right, and I think you just answered your own question about what bull to use. For terminal calves with the size, muscling and carcass you'd want, go with a homo for black and polled Simmental. Or if you just really want red calves, then a homo for red and polled Charolais.
 

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