What breed of bull

[Lon]

So i have bought 30 head of cattle as of right now with possibly another 30 head in couple months depending on thier condition. I bought them from the guy i helped alot before so i know exactly what i am getting. They are older angus cows that are smaller dont know frame size for sure but are around 900-1000lbs right now. but hopeing to get them to 1000-1100 lbs by calving cause that is what they should weigh. The plan is to hopefully have them payed off this fall with the steer calves being sold and saving all the hiefers. they are a real range type cow that are tough cause they come off of highly overstocked pastures year after year and during the winter have no grazing and usually only get fed a third of what they should be fed. the calves the guy weans are usually from 450-550 lbs wich is light but better than you would think if you saw how he treated them. I am assuming that they are low in milk just because the fact that they never have grazing and are always thin but consistantly breed back. So here is my question what bull would you guys breed to for replacements and why. I have narrowed it down to 3 different types. Saler, hereford, or irish black.
I will list some thoughts i have and any extra input with reason would greatly be appreciated.
Saler bulls. 1.They have done real well at taking out of the crazies and i have gottin a breeders name from a guy that crosses saler or red poll and he said he can garuntee he has got more crazy from some red poll than this guys salers they are real calm downed. 2. i have been around saler cattle alot and i know what they are capable of doing. Also i know it is not uncommon for them to breed right up to late teens and 20. (I dont want to loose how long thier production is cause the guy i bought cattle from said he always has them into thier late teens still kicking out calves and roughing it threw like young cows do.)3. The calving ease of the replacements cause i have yet to see much a problem with a saler calving. Not to mention they breed back well and give plenty of milk without having bad bags. (again least the ones i have been around.)4. The thing stopping me from the saler cross is cause they are bigger framed cattle and i dont want big cattle so i have a tough time finding bulls that are not going to be frame 7 or close to. Also if things dont go like planed and i have to sell some replacements instead of keeping them to build my numbers than i dont think this cross of replacements would sell well because around here saler isnt a real popular breed.
Hereford. 1. If i was to have to sell replacements these ones would bring good money if i could keep them than i would still have a decent cow. 2.I dont know squat about herefords but from the little i have seen and what i have been told. I do see some hereford bulls that i have liked the look of like alot of domino bulls seem to catch my eye. 3. there is a guy that runs cattle near us that has herefords (i was told they are the old breed hereford form what his grandpa always had) but they look like they would keep the cattle in more of the smaller size that i am wanting. also his cattle are real good at taking care of themselves cause he sure dont feed much hay in the winter time either. 4. Seems like there is a good selection of hereford out there to pick from.
Irish Black. Again only know from what i have read on thier sites and we know how that can go so would like to hear from anyone that has seen any or have ran them on what they think. but going by thier site. 1 smaller cattle so would stick to the size of what i want. 2. calving ease seems good and from what i read thier average pelvic measurements are right up there with saler so calving should be easier on them. 3. Says they wean a good % of thier obdy weight milk good and breed back good. 4. Says you can get alot of uniformity with them and better carcass qualities. again all this is just from thier websites so no firsthand knowledge for sure on them.
So i guess what you all think and no i dont want simangus even if the sim bull is the one true answer for all cattle and the only one i can make money on. :lol2: :lol2:

 

[VLS_GUY]

The Salers breed has plenty of smaller framed bulls available Go take a look at some of Macdonalds Salers bulls:http://www.macdonaldranches.com/index.php?id=47. I would also look at other breeds like the Simmental and Gelbvieh.

 

[Kathie in Thorp]

Just curious, Lon -- Where are you at in SD? I was raised out there.

 

[Lon]

Just curious, Lon -- Where are you at in SD? I was raised out there.

Rosebud Reservation just north of Valentine Nebraska.

 

[u4411clb]

I don't know allot about South Dakota but in my opinion since you are just starting out you would be money, worry and time ahead to use Hereford bulls. It seems you are looking for easy doing cattle that do not take allot of inputs and Hereford is right up your alley. You will have a very marketable steer animal and a very good replacement female to keep or sell. If making money is the purpose sometimes we have to breed and sell what the market wants instead of what we prefer. Again I don't know allot about South Dakota but in my neck of the woods a truckload lot of hereford x angus would sell 100 times better than, Irish black x Angus or Saler x Angus. Plus if after you breed and keep enough Hereford x Angus replacements then that would be the time to go with your Saler, or Charlois, or Gelbvieh, or God forbid Simmetal. But at the beginning make it easy on yourself take advantage of today's high prices give the market what they want and then once you get your feet wet expand off into what you like. You may change your mind from Saler not that you have to but you may after watching the sale barn and what calves are bringing the best money.

 

[Lon]

I don't know allot about South Dakota but in my opinion since you are just starting out you would be money, worry and time ahead to use Hereford bulls. It seems you are looking for easy doing cattle that do not take allot of inputs and Hereford is right up your alley. You will have a very marketable steer animal and a very good replacement female to keep or sell. If making money is the purpose sometimes we have to breed and sell what the market wants instead of what we prefer. Again I don't know allot about South Dakota but in my neck of the woods a truckload lot of hereford x angus would sell 100 times better than, Irish black x Angus or Saler x Angus. Plus if after you breed and keep enough Hereford x Angus replacements then that would be the time to go with your Saler, or Charlois, or Gelbvieh, or God forbid Simmetal. But at the beginning make it easy on yourself take advantage of today's high prices give the market what they want and then once you get your feet wet expand off into what you like. You may change your mind from Saler not that you have to but you may after watching the sale barn and what calves are bringing the best money.

yup the baldy sells great around here. that is why i am leaning mostly twords hereford right now cause of the fact that it gives me the most marketable product. i have some saler cows thier calves sell no different than angus if they are crossed with an angus but if straight bred saler they are a little framey and get docked some. i would really like a bunch of old hereford cows and put a black saler bull on them for replacements but im getting a decent deal on these cows. but i have alot to learn about hereford bulls and what are good ones and what ones to stay away from cause i know saler guys and angus guys and that about it.

 

[robert]

how much do you really want to change these cows? I ask because you have described a scenario where they are born and raised tough, these cattle are survivors, if things are as bad as you say regarding their management I'd say a simple improvement in feed resource will improve the growth of the calves and over time will increase the actual size of the cows based on the assumption that these cows have been somewhat stunted. As for breed to use on them I'd say Angus (because I'm an Angus breeder and biased that way) or Hereford, lots of good breeders of both in the Dakota's. Either way the calves will be marketable. In looking for hereford bulls I'd go to a few different operations, see how they raise them, pay particular attention to udder/teat quality, feet, mature size of the cows and herd bulls, and general management (what they feed, how much etc). In Angus pay particular attention to the bloodlines, lot of defects floating around, too many bulls getting sold without papers, avoid the heavily hyped cattle, like the herefords find some breeders who share your goals and use similar management. I'd be more than happy to recommend a few if you want to pm me.

 

[3waycross]

Lon check your PM's

 

[Dylan Biggs]

how much do you really want to change these cows? I ask because you have described a scenario where they are born and raised tough, these cattle are survivors, if things are as bad as you say regarding their management I'd say a simple improvement in feed resource will improve the growth of the calves and over time will increase the actual size of the cows based on the assumption that these cows have been somewhat stunted. As for breed to use on them I'd say Angus (because I'm an Angus breeder and biased that way) or Hereford, lots of good breeders of both in the Dakota's. Either way the calves will be marketable. In looking for hereford bulls I'd go to a few different operations, see how they raise them, pay particular attention to udder/teat quality, feet, mature size of the cows and herd bulls, and general management (what they feed, how much etc). In Angus pay particular attention to the bloodlines, lot of defects floating around, too many bulls getting sold without papers, avoid the heavily hyped cattle, like the herefords find some breeders who share your goals and use similar management. I'd be more than happy to recommend a few if you want to pm me.

Keeping things simple has many logistic benefits especially as one progresses through the years. Sticking to two breeds, a maternal for replacements and a terminal for production can optimize production and maintain ease of breeding logistics. My nieghbor has maintained a Red Angus cow herd and uses Charolais as terminal. He raises his own replacements by breeding his yearlings and two's to Red Angus and his matures Charolais. His Char cross calves are consistently at or very near the market top for the last 25 years. Simple and effective.
The most simple system is to breed all females, heifers and mature, in a single herd, in which case your terminal breed choice would need to be easy calving. Calving ease Saler may be eaiser to source then easy calving Herefords, though there are a few easy calving Herefords around. Hereford 76, would be a good contact. Depending on your area and market preferences, Saler cross may not be as marketable.
Sounds like a good foundation group of cows, best way to maintain them would be to use an appropriate Angus type to raise replacements and your choice of terminal for market stock, Hererord or Saler. Hereford would probably make the heifer crop very marketable with out compromising much mareketability on the steers.

The logistics of a 3 way cross over time if you want to raise your own replacements becomes more of a challenge.

Simplicity over time is seldom regretable.

Dylan, aprreciating simplicity more every year.

 

[brierpatch1974]

Well I am jsut getting started too and so far I am thinking my plan will be this. Raise Branvieh cows and cross them with a Black Gelbvieh Bull. I am not going to get into three way crosses but will breed my own Branvieh replacements. This is what I am planning as of now but going to be a couple years before I get started on that since I am just starting my herd. 24 Cows at the moment and only a couple months to go before calving starts. I am getting nervous and excited. And praying I get a lot of heifers compared to bulls lol. I wonder what the ratio will be?

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Dylan, aprreciating simplicity more every year. [/quote] alacowman,, be appreciatin'' it to :cowboy:

 

[piedmontese]

i would go with the saler bull.i have saler cattle and other breeds but my salers are the most easy doing by far.i have no crazy salers either.they x well with anything.i have never pulled a saler sired calf.

 

[wishIwasinMT]

Here is an interesting study done by Virginia Tech. If you want return on profits on steers & quick turn around on quality heifers, Saler is the choice. [http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/400/400-803/400-803.html]

 

[OK Jeanne]

You should g to the Frost Ranch by Bassett, NE--close to Valentine. Check out their murray greys. The angus/murray
grey cross makes an outstanding cross animal.

 

[AussieLim]

Hey Lon,

I am a Limousin & Lim-Flex breeder so slightly biased but feel to produce a profitable, feed efficient calf you need to cross your Britisg bred Angus cows to a Continental/Euro breed to obtain the benifits of hybrid vigour and put some punch and growth into your calves.
My first choice would be to use a Black Limousin or Black Simm bull over these cows. Limo will give you a bit more yield and muscle.
If you are concerned with going PURE continental consider a composite e.g. Lim-Flex or SimmAngus. Won't give you as powerful calf but very versatile if your wishing to keep replacement females.

Good luck- breeding cattle is fun and it great researching the options.