What a crock of shinola

[Bez+]

Have not received a Herf book in a long time - but did go to see the pics mentioned here.

I hang my head - no wonder this animal is going down fast.

And we raise them - my home raised and un-registered bulls make these "winners" look like the greyhound losers they are.

I am looking for a new boy to bring in some outside genetics and I would never go to the two pictured potentials.

Thank heavens there are still a few good ranch raised animals around that I can get semen from.

What is this world coming to?

Bez+

 

[hillsdown]

I don't know about herfs but I have received a few herd dispersal catalogs as well from a few different breeds as well a national futurity catalog and was very disappointed in what I saw. EPD's were really good but the cattle were very fine boned, shallow and just overall not what I would choose for my herd.

 

[Jake]

I don't know about herfs but I have received a few herd dispersal catalogs as well from a few different breeds as well a national futurity catalog and was very disappointed in what I saw. EPD's were really good but the cattle were very fine boned, shallow and just overall not what I would choose for my herd.

I've seen this a lot in the hereford catalogs I've been seeing lately. I can remember when my grandpa and great grandpa had herfs and they were moderate functional do it all cows. Most every set of herfs I've seen lately have been big bad and ugly. If I was looking for a terminal sire I wouldn't mind them but as far as cow makers they need to return to their roots before I get excited about a baldy again.

 

[Hereford76]

this is the bad side of a thread like this. doesn't do much good for the breed - but this is what is at the core of my frustrations. i made a comment awhile back about the association turning its back on the backbone of our industry and how it will not be sustainable. we can concentrate our efforts on the youth, ai to the michael jordan's of the breed, and take advantage of the "tainted", "defect" genetics of the breed through dna filters, and kiss big money/fly by night producer butt, let the hobby rancher's set the "perception" for our breed, and quit squabbling over polled/horned cattle - but where is it going to get us. For awhile now i've been saying that the aformentioned is going to screw our breed all over again. i don't know the right words or way to say it but... the association is nothing more than a 2 bit ho. they spred their legs for anyone and anything that comes along with enough money or bright idea. i guess i better quit before i say what i really want to say and offend everyone.


Herefords have come a long way and everyone needs to realize this:

Thank heavens there are still a few good ranch raised animals around that I can get semen from.

just like you have to do your homework to market straight hereford feeders - we need to do our homework when bringing in new hereford influence, going back to herefords, or whatever your situation.

 

[hillsdown]

H 76 your statement is not limited to just the Hereford association, it seems to be happening with all of the breeds. I want functional,, as well as exceptional epds.. I really do not think that is asking too much out of your breed of choice ...

 

[blackcowz]

Welp, I have to say myself that I am officially fed up. I like a cow with a butt, top, and moderate frame. To get butts and loin muscle in our commercial herd, we've gone to using Limousin. The bull we currently have is so ripped, you could pour a bottle of Coke down that crease in his back and not spill a drop. Not ideal, but what we're using to get cattle with some stoutness and bone. Even as an Angus guy, if my EPD's are somewhere around average with moderate milk and good $EN, I can throw the rest out the window. This bull is "average" in his EPD's, and we're going to be weaning some big calves. We really like using a Hereford for baldies, but aside from Coleman Herefords, we've had trouble finding good red and white cattle. The other day, I spent an hour on the phone with Jim Lents, and after looking at some of his cattle, I might just start saving my $$$ for a bull next spring. Functional Herfs with predictable breeding, butts, foraging ability, and some nice carcass data from what I have seen/heard. I think when you can sacrifice some growth for cattle that are actually built like a beef animal, we'll make some good progress. At least on out farm. As KT said, "My thoughts only, don't bet the farm on them."

 

[Brandonm22]

I really don't CARE whether Titan had a Simmental ancestor or not. Absolute purity in a breed is a very silly thing too worry about. You will never achieve it (even if you THINK you have) and if it doesn't translate into economics it is irrelevant anyway. My concern is the trend towards increasing cow weight.

"Looking at average mature weights of four-year old cows at the U.S. MARC showed Simmentals with the largest average cow herd size (1,353 lbs), followed by Hereford (1,348 lbs), Angus (1,342 lbs), Charolais (1,339 lbs), Limousin (1,330 lbs), and Gelbvieh (1,282 lbs)." http://www.farmandranchguide.com/articl ... uide02.txt

Out there in the real world of today's genetics there isn't a 14 pound spread between Hereford, Simmental, Charolais, and Angus in average mature cow size. For every Simmie moose or Charolais tank I can find a Hereford or an Angus who is just as heavy on the scales. Hereford doesn't have a mature cow weight EPD or a $EN or maintenance energy EPD to rein in cow sizes. All we have is eyeball and the yearling weight EPD. +104 is in the top 1% of the entire breed. I am not knocking Red House; but he is too young to have mature daughters yet so nobody KNOWS anything about his daughters. He "looks" growthy and a little late maturing too me. They don't have a single calf weight in yet on those yearling weight EPDs so they are liable too change (and going up is theoretically as likely as going down). I don't have enough information to knock him; but if you have 1400, 1500, and 1600 lb cows NOW this bull may not be the bull too moderate those numbers any.

 

[HerefordSire]

Does shinola taste like granola? :cboy: :cboy: :cboy:

Hill Creek Ranch could set us all straight on the subject!

 

[Hereford76]

Absolute purity in a breed is a very silly thing too worry about.

however - in my opinion, absolute integrity isn't.

i agree that if it doesn't translate into economics its irrelevant but on the other hand that whole issue boils down to integrity... so my question is what is integrity (in a seedstock setting) worth in economic terms?

 

[Brandonm22]

Absolute purity in a breed is a very silly thing too worry about.

however - in my opinion, absolute integrity isn't.

i agree that if it doesn't translate into economics its irrelevant but on the other hand that whole issue boils down to integrity... so my question is what is integrity (in a seedstock setting) worth in economic terms?

If integrity does not translate into dollars it has no worth.

 

[Hereford76]

Absolute purity in a breed is a very silly thing too worry about.

however - in my opinion, absolute integrity isn't.

i agree that if it doesn't translate into economics its irrelevant but on the other hand that whole issue boils down to integrity... so my question is what is integrity (in a seedstock setting) worth in economic terms?

If integrity does not translate into dollars it has no worth.

that pretty much sums her up...

and i think a high percentage of seedstock producers know/believe that.



oh, and by the way...what???? i can't make heads or tails of any of this.

Welp, I have to say myself that I am officially fed up. I like a cow with a butt, top, and moderate frame. To get butts and loin muscle in our commercial herd, we've gone to using Limousin. The bull we currently have is so ripped, you could pour a bottle of Coke down that crease in his back and not spill a drop. Not ideal, but what we're using to get cattle with some stoutness and bone. Even as an Angus guy, if my EPD's are somewhere around average with moderate milk and good $EN, I can throw the rest out the window. This bull is "average" in his EPD's, and we're going to be weaning some big calves. We really like using a Hereford for baldies, but aside from Coleman Herefords, we've had trouble finding good red and white cattle. The other day, I spent an hour on the phone with Jim Lents, and after looking at some of his cattle, I might just start saving my $$$ for a bull next spring. Functional Herfs with predictable breeding, butts, foraging ability, and some nice carcass data from what I have seen/heard. I think when you can sacrifice some growth for cattle that are actually built like a beef animal, we'll make some good progress. At least on out farm. As KT said, "My thoughts only, don't bet the farm on them."

 

[rocket2222]

heres another example of what is advertised in the magazine that WLM probably referrs too.

http://www.accelgen.com/htm/sire_pages/014HP01015.html

I'd bet money that a few years back Knoll Crest wouldn't have let this one slip though. Now they know in the short term anyway, he's a money maker for them. He's giving them what the semen suppliers want and can sell, calving ease and marbling numbers, most of the "top" breeders are doing the same thing, riding the carcass wave, making the quick buck, hard to blame them in this economy.

 

[alftn]

greed and glutuny = money
lies and false truth = money
lack of intergrity = money


I HOPE I DIE A PENNYLESS MAN my word and intergrity are PRICELESS

I pity any man( if you can call "it" that) who does not feel the same!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[novatech]

greed and glutuny = money
lies and false truth = money
lack of intergrity = money


I HOPE I DIE A PENNYLESS MAN my word and intergrity are PRICELESS

I pity any man( if you can call "it" that) who does not feel the same!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

my word and intergrity are PRICELESS

Probably the only thing I see in your post that is not a crock of shinola.
The rest is a rationalization for failure. My business is proof positive that one can succeed with the truth and integrity. As far as greed is concerned, where is it written that one is not allowed to make a profit.
Truth and integrity are the most marketable virtues on the face of the earth. Look at the Bible. Fairly successful I would say. You just need learn how to market these virtues and get rid of the idea that making money is somehow wrong.
On the other side marketing crap or by deception somehow has become a way of life for most. They have rationalized that it is OK because everyone else does it.

 

[novatech]

The bulls posted in the magazine are fairly typical of what I see in the area I live in. Not only Herefords but Angus, Brangus, and other breeds as well. It seems most are looking at length and maybe a couple off other traits while forgetting about the rest. Maybe to many people are focusing on EPD's. Maybe to many people are just buying bulls that came off a ranch that has a big name. I don't have any idea what has caused so may bulls like these to be marketed. I can tell you that it will be imposable for me to buy a bull of my liking around my area. Bulls with no butt are becoming more and more acceptable. I have no clue why. As for me I won't buy a bull without a butt.

 

[Australian]

Fortunately Herefords are doing fine here in Australia. Bulls still look like bulls and females are still feminine. The bull pictured was very cow headed and is not my idea of a bull to produce registered offspring.

 

[buymorebulls]

Brandonm22:

For American Hereford breeders, one can use the Australian database and/or Canadian database as an indicator of cow size.

The Aussie database shows 198 imported sires published in the sire summary. If you sort them by the heaviest cow weights, you'll find names like Neon, 3008, Rambo, Hollywood and JNHR President. On the "light" end, you can find names like CL1 522E, Endurance and Braxton Giant. The following link should sort the sires for you.
http://abri.une.edu.au/online/cgi-bin/i4.dll?1=2A2C3E293E&2=233750&3=56&5=2B3C2B3C3A&8=4853&9=51505F

If you look, you can find bulls that break the antagonistics for example, there are 4 sires that are in the Top 25% for 400 day weight and the lighter 25% for cow size; Feltons 517 (surprising to me), AWHEA UHF U65, EF F745 Frank P230 and REM GLF Innovator 152K.

OR, I like to use the top 25% for carcass weight (because I retain ownership in my calves and sell on a grid) and lighter 25% for cow size. That sort will net you 23 sires, sorted by CED:
ARDO RUSSIA 4133 (IMP)
KIWI PHANTOM P49 (IMP)
REMITALL ACE 145A (IMP) (ET)
KOANUI TARZAN P5 (IMP) (AI) (ET)
HOT SHOT RHHR 20W (IMP) (TW)
FELTONS 517 (IMP USA) (IMP)
CHURCHILL VOUCHER ET1 (IMP) (AI) (ET)
REMITALL BOOMER 46B (IMP)
AWHEA UHF U65 (IMP)
REMITALL EMBRACER 8E (IMP)JC CATALYST (IMP)
TH JWR SOP 16G 57G TUNDRA 63N
DXB 7C BLOCKBUSTER 3K (IMP)
FELTONS JUMBO 112 (IMP)
BRAXTON WESTWIND 120M (IMP)
HH HOME BUILDER 603 (IMP)
GERBER WATCHFIRE 117F (IMP)
REMITALL GOVERNOR 236G (IMP)
WTK 55Y BOND 75A (IMP)
KOANUI UNION 2568 (IMP)
FCC 60G MADDUX 4L (IMP)
HF 4L BEYOND 36N (IMP)
EAGLE-RIDGE BLASTER 4J (IMP) (ET)

 

[alacattleman]

":5p2iycwl]Fortunately Herefords are doing fine here in Australia.[/u] Bulls still look like bulls and females are still feminine. The bull pictured was very cow headed and is not my idea of a bull to produce registered offspring.

opps here we go again... for every polished turd you see posted here,theres several hundred out there doing a great job with mud on em and flies swarming them

 

[Brandonm22]

Bulls with no butt are becoming more and more acceptable. I have no clue why. As for me I won't buy a bull without a butt.

The round is a byproduct. Nobody eats roasts anymore. A big round is like a big chuck it is nothing but burger. The loin is the cut that drives beef prices. As such, people are putting all their eggs in one basket.........the ultrasound measurement of the loin and its accompanying ribeye area EPD. I think this is a mistake. A carcass bull should have muscling throughout AND an above breed average carcass measurements/EPDs. Ultrasounds can be wrong, EPDs can be inaccurate, and feeder calf buyers never see the sire's ultrasound or EPD numbers. They measure thickness by looking at the calf.....primarily the butt.

As an aside on the whole integrity flap. If the market is not paying you for your integrity they either don't believe you or they don't care because the market perceives that your product won't make them as much money as the product that other people are marketing. That doesn't necessarily mean that you would make money by being dishonest, just that the market places no value in whatever you are doing now. Either improve the marketing or improve the product.

 

[WichitaLineMan]

>>if integrity does not translate into dollars it has no worth<<

Boy you're really showing your stripes with that comment. It is that sort of thinking that has gotten this whole country (not just the cattle biz) in the shape it is in today. INTEGRITY is everything.