Well Pump Trouble

[ClinchValley86]

I've got a Franklin subdrive 15 variable frequency/constant pressure well deal. I hate it. lol Have a pressure tank plumbed in too. Just painting the picture.

It's out again, motor and pump are only 2 years old, the controller is maybe 3.5 years old. $5500+ the last 4 year involving 3 service calls, 1 was a warranty (parts no charge). It's throwing an "open phase" fault so I assume thr motor has took a dump.

Pump sits 580 feet deep, highest waterer is 200 feet above the well head.

Is there a mechanical means of achieving constant pressure? I'd like to be a little informed when the well guy gets here.

Might be a tall order... I did read about a cycle stop valve. Seemed to be a mechanical type constant pressure system. But I'm reading conflicting stuff about it. Can't nail down the yay or nay.

 

[chaded]

I am using a shallow well jet pump with a storage tank for my home. The tank is filled with pressurized county water but it is not enough pressure for the house use hence the jet pump. Anyways, i switched to a CSV not too long ago and we love it so far. If you have any questions i can try to answer them to the best of my ability which might not be very good. Lol.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I'm not an engineer so I can't say much, and what I do have to say is more of a question than helpful input, but it might give you something to look at.

200 feet is a lot of vertical lift with a lot of strain/pressure put on the pump. The pump can do this, as it has been doing this, but is that the reason it is wearing out? As you mentioned the 200 feet rise, I'm guessing you might have an inkling that this is contributing to the issue if not THE issue? I don't know the arrangement/heights of your various waterers/troughs, but have you considered installing a holding tank for water somewhere around the 100 ft elevation level that this pump pumps water to and then installing a 2nd pump at the holding tank to pump the water from there? This will significantly decrease the pressure (and wear) on the pump? I Designed a system once that had 180 feet of rise/vertical lift that this had to be done for.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I'm not an engineer so I can't say much, and what I do have to say is more of a question than helpful input, but it might give you something to look at.

200 feet is a lot of vertical lift with a lot of strain/pressure put on the pump. The pump can do this, as it has been doing this, but is that the reason it is wearing out? As you mentioned the 200 feet rise, I'm guessing you might have an inkling that this is contributing to the issue if not THE issue? I don't know the arrangement/heights of your various waterers/troughs, but have you considered installing a holding tank for water somewhere around the 100 ft elevation level that this pump pumps water to and then installing a 2nd pump at the holding tank to pump the water from there? This will significantly decrease the pressure (and wear) on the pump? I Designed a system once that had 180 feet of rise/vertical lift that this had to be done for.

Contact the NRCS and ask for an engineer or engineering technician.

 

[cowman82]

this won't help right now but what size is your pressure tank? I see all the time these guys installing the smallest pressure tanks. With that depth I'd have atleast (2) 120 gallon tanks. That way the pump isn't turning on for a short time and turning off. it will really lengthen the life.

 

[simme]

I am an engineer, but well pumps are not my specialty. My understanding is that you have a variable speed pump/motor connected to a variable frequency electrical drive. And operating to maintain a fixed pressure. There must be a pressure sensor somewhere wired to the drive. The elevation where the pressure sensor is mounted will affect the pressure setpoint in the drive. Do you know where the pressure sensor is located and what the pressure setpoint is in the drive? Pump is located 580 feet deep and highest point of use is 200 feet higher than the ground at the well head. That is a total lift of 780 feet on the pump. Feet of head times 0.43 equals psig at the pump discharge. So, 335 psig on the discharge connection of the pump in the well. That is to just get the water to the highest discharge point. Add any pressure drop in the piping due to friction from the flow rate. So well above 350 psig on the pump. Are the pump and the piping rated for 350 psig or more? Might there be a leak in the discharge pipe that keeps the pump running all the time? Is the variable frequency drive set up properly? Does it stop when no water is being used or just go to a very low speed and run continuously? Did the people that supplied the system know that you go up 200 feet of elevation on the discharge? Engineers always have a lot of questions before they reach conclusions.

Somewhat similar to what Mark suggested, you could have a storage tank at the well head with another lower pressure pump to distribute the water to the use points. The submersible pump in the well could be a constant speed (constant flow) pump run just to fill the storage tank. Turn on and off based on level in the tank. Or a big, pressurized tank with a bladder at the well head with a pressure switch to start and start the submersible pump. Then the second pump acting as a booster pump to distribute the water. That booster pump would need about 200 to 250 feet of head to boost the water to the highest elevation user. Lower elevation users might could be fed from the pressurized bladder tank at the well head depending on the pressure switch setting and their elevation.

Variable frequency drives can supply a wide range of pressures and can save energy and wear and tear, but must be designed and set up for the specific pressures and flows required. And the pump needs to be sized for the max flows and pressures as well as looking at the minimum flow rates.

Those are just some engineering thoughts. Like I said, I am not a well pump expert. Let me know if I can help.

 

[Brute 23]

this won't help right now but what size is your pressure tank? I see all the time these guys installing the smallest pressure tanks. With that depth I'd have atleast (2) 120 gallon tanks. That way the pump isn't turning on for a short time and turning off. it will really lengthen the life.

That is right. More volume so you have have longer pump intervals and longer off time. Stop all that on and off.

I think they are trying to outsmart that basic system with the vfd pump and drive to a small tank.

 

[Brute 23]

I don't think it is common on water wells but the only way to have constant pressure or flow systems is to have a control valve on a bypass. It reads the pressure on the system and alleviates any excess, back in the the source.

 

[RDFF]

What everybody already said. Wow, that is ALOT of lift. You should have a LARGE reservoir, so the pump runs in long intervals, and shuts off, instead of start/stop all the time.

 

[simme]

When I mentioned constant flow/pressure, it was in regard to having a 2 pump system. Deep well pump filling a tank at the surface. Comes on at fixed speed and pumps a constant flow to fill a tank. A second pump to pump out of the storage tank that would supply the variable rate/pressure of the distribution system.

 

[Silver]

I am an engineer, but well pumps are not my specialty. My understanding is that you have a variable speed pump/motor connected to a variable frequency electrical drive. And operating to maintain a fixed pressure. There must be a pressure sensor somewhere wired to the drive. The elevation where the pressure sensor is mounted will affect the pressure setpoint in the drive. Do you know where the pressure sensor is located and what the pressure setpoint is in the drive? Pump is located 580 feet deep and highest point of use is 200 feet higher than the ground at the well head. That is a total lift of 780 feet on the pump. Feet of head times 0.43 equals psig at the pump discharge. So, 335 psig on the discharge connection of the pump in the well. That is to just get the water to the highest discharge point. Add any pressure drop in the piping due to friction from the flow rate. So well above 350 psig on the pump. Are the pump and the piping rated for 350 psig or more? Might there be a leak in the discharge pipe that keeps the pump running all the time? Is the variable frequency drive set up properly? Does it stop when no water is being used or just go to a very low speed and run continuously? Did the people that supplied the system know that you go up 200 feet of elevation on the discharge? Engineers always have a lot of questions before they reach conclusions.

Somewhat similar to what Mark suggested, you could have a storage tank at the well head with another lower pressure pump to distribute the water to the use points. The submersible pump in the well could be a constant speed (constant flow) pump run just to fill the storage tank. Turn on and off based on level in the tank. Or a big, pressurized tank with a bladder at the well head with a pressure switch to start and start the submersible pump. Then the second pump acting as a booster pump to distribute the water. That booster pump would need about 200 to 250 feet of head to boost the water to the highest elevation user. Lower elevation users might could be fed from the pressurized bladder tank at the well head depending on the pressure switch setting and their elevation.

Variable frequency drives can supply a wide range of pressures and can save energy and wear and tear, but must be designed and set up for the specific pressures and flows required. And the pump needs to be sized for the max flows and pressures as well as looking at the minimum flow rates.

Those are just some engineering thoughts. Like I said, I am not a well pump expert. Let me know if I can help.

I didn't see where he said what the static level of the water in the well is, only how deep the pump was set so we can't know what the lift actually is.

 

[Travlr]

Over fifty percent of the problems I've had with wells have been the pressure tank being waterlogged. Drain it so the bladder reinflates and it lasts a while until it needs to be drained again. No idea if that's what you have but it's what always happened with my wells.

 

[chaded]

If you use a CSV you don't need a very big pressure tank. I am using a 50/70 pressure switch and supplying water at a constant 60 psi from basement to second story so I have a 10 gallon pressure tank. Depending on what you are doing you could get by with a smaller one (4.5 gallon).

 

[ClinchValley86]

Contact the NRCS and ask for an engineer or engineering technician.

NRCS are the ones that paid for this system 20+ years ago. Had a guy out in 2019 from NRCS and he said it was the wrong setup for the place. Indeed it should be a gravity fed system. They had me signed up and prices went thru the roof and they wouldn't adjust for me, so I opted out.

Probably ought to talk to them again and see if their numbers are more accurate. That said, I need water now so should probably get this one working the cheapest way possible and fix it right this summer, whether I pay for it or NRCS wants to contribute.

I will say it worked fine for 15 years. As soon as I fixed all the leaky Ritchie valves it started giving me trouble. lol. Makes no sense.

 

[ClinchValley86]

That is right. More volume so you have have longer pump intervals and longer off time. Stop all that on and off.

I think they are trying to outsmart that basic system with the vfd pump and drive to a small tank.

it's not a very big tank, probably 30 gallons. Smaller than a 50 gallon drum no doubt.

 

[ClinchValley86]

I do a decent bit of plumbing work, but this well stuff is over my head. All the components and terminology just leave me confused.

All I do know for sure is ya lose around 4 psi for every 10 feet you push up. So that's a loss of 80 psi going 200 feet. So that one was pointless from the get go. Crazy that they thought this was a logical setup/system.

 

[ClinchValley86]

I am an engineer, but well pumps are not my specialty. My understanding is that you have a variable speed pump/motor connected to a variable frequency electrical drive. And operating to maintain a fixed pressure. There must be a pressure sensor somewhere wired to the drive. The elevation where the pressure sensor is mounted will affect the pressure setpoint in the drive. Do you know where the pressure sensor is located and what the pressure setpoint is in the drive? Pump is located 580 feet deep and highest point of use is 200 feet higher than the ground at the well head. That is a total lift of 780 feet on the pump. Feet of head times 0.43 equals psig at the pump discharge. So, 335 psig on the discharge connection of the pump in the well. That is to just get the water to the highest discharge point. Add any pressure drop in the piping due to friction from the flow rate. So well above 350 psig on the pump. Are the pump and the piping rated for 350 psig or more? Might there be a leak in the discharge pipe that keeps the pump running all the time? Is the variable frequency drive set up properly? Does it stop when no water is being used or just go to a very low speed and run continuously? Did the people that supplied the system know that you go up 200 feet of elevation on the discharge? Engineers always have a lot of questions before they reach conclusions.

Somewhat similar to what Mark suggested, you could have a storage tank at the well head with another lower pressure pump to distribute the water to the use points. The submersible pump in the well could be a constant speed (constant flow) pump run just to fill the storage tank. Turn on and off based on level in the tank. Or a big, pressurized tank with a bladder at the well head with a pressure switch to start and start the submersible pump. Then the second pump acting as a booster pump to distribute the water. That booster pump would need about 200 to 250 feet of head to boost the water to the highest elevation user. Lower elevation users might could be fed from the pressurized bladder tank at the well head depending on the pressure switch setting and their elevation.

Variable frequency drives can supply a wide range of pressures and can save energy and wear and tear, but must be designed and set up for the specific pressures and flows required. And the pump needs to be sized for the max flows and pressures as well as looking at the minimum flow rates.

Those are just some engineering thoughts. Like I said, I am not a well pump expert. Let me know if I can help.

I have since disconnected the 200 foot high waterer. Probably only pushing 30 feet higher than the well head and pressure sensor as of the last 3 years. I realized it was not realistic to get 200 feet up. Probably shouldn't have even mentioned the extra 200 feet of push.

You're dead on though. I piss harder than the highest waterer would flow.

 

[ClinchValley86]

I didn't see where he said what the static level of the water in the well is, only how deep the pump was set so we can't know what the lift actually is.

water was about 60 foot down last time we pulled it.

 

[Brute 23]

Ya I'm not a fan of that set up. It sound overly complicated for what you need.

Is there a house on any continual use items on it or just water troughs and things if that nature?

 

[mwj]

NRCS are the ones that paid for this system 20+ years ago. Had a guy out in 2019 from NRCS and he said it was the wrong setup for the place. Indeed it should be a gravity fed system. They had me signed up and prices went thru the roof and they wouldn't adjust for me, so I opted out.

Probably ought to talk to them again and see if their numbers are more accurate. That said, I need water now so should probably get this one working the cheapest way possible and fix it right this summer, whether I pay for it or NRCS wants to contribute.

I will say it worked fine for 15 years. As soon as I fixed all the leaky Ritchie valves it started giving me trouble. lol. Makes no sense.

If it worked fine for 15 years the design would not be all of your problem. If you can maybe jot down all of your changes in the last few years. It could be as simple as your waterers were leaking enough to let the system cycle more. Sometimes things are not as unimportant as we think. Good luck in fixing it as lack of water is a terrible thing.