Weight gain this time of year (grass in a cool wet spring)

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SRBeef

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I shipped a couple near 1000 lb (902-1060 lb) steers on Saturday 6/13 and took weights as they went through the alley and on the trailer. Compared the weight on 6/13/09 to their weights on 5/15/09 (vet visit) and was surprised to find their ADG, for this about 30 day period, was in the 4.5 lb/day range, tops was 4.7 lb/day. This is with no significant grain, just grazing in this wet cool spring so far. Pastures are still getting ahead of the grazing and need clipping.

I am amazed at how fast they can put on weight on pasture only. I need to be careful I don't jinx us here. Last year started out like this too but then turned hot and dry in late july and August andnot enough grass, had to feed hay for awhile late last summer.

If we could just keep this up would be nice. I guess things average out over time. Still surprised to see this on large animals. Spring calves are even higher, in the 5 lb/day range, had a couple over 6 lb in about the past 30 days but that is not as unusual for growing calves?

Not bragging, certainly not my doing, just need to be thankful for the grass! Thought the numbers may be of interest. I'm looking forward to plotting the rate of gain by month or season, and see if there are big differences in animals. Certainly seems to be a big difference between the steers and heifers. Just the engineer in me.

Jim
 

HerefordSire

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SRBeef":2c7e4bxz said:
Spring calves are even higher, in the 5 lb/day range, had a couple over 6 lb in about the past 30 days but that is not as unusual for growing calves?

Were the spring calves sired by your T21 bull?

For a birth weight of 80 pounds, 80 + 6 * 205 = 1,310 WW.

You could be able to feed your calves free as the result of selling T21 for more money. For example, if your calves were able to wean 800 pounds average (leave more corn in the corn stalks or put them on a section ealier than normal), I would think you could sell T21 for about $5K.
 

KNERSIE

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...and was surprised to find their ADG, for this about 30 day period, was in the 4.5 lb/day range, tops was 4.7 lb/day.... I am amazed at how fast they can put on weight on pasture only....

Compensatory gain, will last about 6 weeks then go back to more realistic numbers (even if you could keep the grass at the same nutritional level)
 
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SRBeef

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HerefordSire":g88m7zg6 said:
SRBeef":g88m7zg6 said:
Spring calves are even higher, in the 5 lb/day range, had a couple over 6 lb in about the past 30 days but that is not as unusual for growing calves?

Were the spring calves sired by your T21 bull?

For a birth weight of 80 pounds, 80 + 6 * 205 = 1,310 WW.

You could be able to feed your calves free as the result of selling T21 for more money. For example, if your calves were able to wean 800 pounds average (leave more corn in the corn stalks or put them on a section ealier than normal), I would think you could sell T21 for about $5K.

1300 lb weaning wt...pity the cow!!! :)

Yes they are sired by T-21, No I don't expect 1300 lb weaning wts! Obviously this is early gain helped by grass resulting from a cool wet spring so far. Tough on corn and bean planting but good for grazing.

I am interested in developing a growth curve ADG vs age and maybe calving date.

Not interested in selling T-21 until I have to. May work something out with a neighbor so I can keep him breeding non related cows and have his daughters bred by another bull someday.

About the corn, looking to feed out steers mostly so some are ready for harvest abotu yearling time in the spring rather than in the fall. Jim
 

HerefordSire

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Jim...you could be sitting on a gold mine. At first, I thought you made a simple math error. Then I punched some numbers and studied his pedigree again. He is line-bred the #1 multiple trait leading bull in the entire breed for starters. I think there is more to him than that though. Is T21 scurred even though he is showing as polled?
 
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SRBeef

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Yes he is scurred. I see one of the calves that looks like he is also developing scurs but most look polled, so far. Really does not matter to me. I want to sell beef and it looks like he is going to help me do that profitably. I am really not interested in selling him "gold mine" or not. I could not afford a similar replacement, most likely.

Jerry Huth just had a sale and probably has a few more up his sleeve. Jerry picked him out for me and I am thankful for his helping a beginner. He could have sold me about any bull he wanted to get rid of and I would not have known the difference - for awhile. But he didn't.

Besides, T-21's EPD's are "low accuracy" (and always will be)...who would want a bull with such low accuracy??? ;-) Thanks for your comments though. Jim
 

HerefordSire

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SRBeef":1babbx7g said:
Yes he is scurred. I see one of the calves that looks like he is also developing scurs but most look polled, so far. Really does not matter to me. I want to sell beef and it looks like he is going to help me do that profitably. I am really not interested in selling him "gold mine" or not. I could not afford a similar replacement, most likely.

Jerry Huth just had a sale and probably has a few more up his sleeve. Jerry picked him out for me and I am thankful for his helping a beginner. He could have sold me about any bull he wanted to get rid of and I would not have known the difference - for awhile. But he didn't.

Besides, T-21's EPD's are "low accuracy" (and always will be)...who would want a bull with such low accuracy??? ;-) Thanks for your comments though. Jim

Usually, accuracy to me means nothing. I look mainly at value and study an absurd amount. Then I get the feeling. Every now and then I am wrong. Did your bull generate a 117 WW ratio in Jerry's herd? I had a feeling your bull was scurred which is likely to increase the value I am sensing if my hunch is correct.
 
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SRBeef

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HerefordSire":1i2alfhu said:
SRBeef":1i2alfhu said:
Yes he is scurred. I see one of the calves that looks like he is also developing scurs but most look polled, so far. Really does not matter to me. I want to sell beef and it looks like he is going to help me do that profitably. I am really not interested in selling him "gold mine" or not. I could not afford a similar replacement, most likely.

Jerry Huth just had a sale and probably has a few more up his sleeve. Jerry picked him out for me and I am thankful for his helping a beginner. He could have sold me about any bull he wanted to get rid of and I would not have known the difference - for awhile. But he didn't.

Besides, T-21's EPD's are "low accuracy" (and always will be)...who would want a bull with such low accuracy??? ;-) Thanks for your comments though. Jim

Usually, accuracy to me means nothing. I look mainly at value and study an absurd amount. Then I get the feeling. Every now and then I am wrong. Did your bull generate a 117 WW ratio in Jerry's herd? I had a feeling your bull was scurred which is likely to increase the value I am sensing if my hunch is correct.

I don't understand the 117 WW ratio. I see the EPD's show +54 WW and +86 YW where does 117 come from?

I do see good growth from the calves but my number 1 criteria for a bull is calving ease. As far as I can tell from this spring, his calves about fell out of a wide range of larger and smaller cows and a couple first time heifers. That's what I asked Jerry for and that's what he sold me.

I also don't understand your comment about scurs. I thought that they were a negative? Someone else had a post on here recently talking about how his partners backed out of a bull purchase due to scurs...

They don't matter to me, as long as I don't have any full horned animals around. If I do I guess they will just have to be dehorned. Got to take the minuses with the pluses. I have one bull calf that looks fabulous even as young as he is but he seems to be scurred also. Why would scurs increase value??? I'll post this and look for a picture showing his scurs.

edit: here's a picture from early this spring. You can see his scurs if you look close.

T21_Grazing_corn_stalks_side_032109_IMG_4207.JPG
 

KNERSIE

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I don't understand the 117 WW ratio. I see the EPD's show +54 WW and +86 YW where does 117 come from?

Look up his performance pedigree and under that you'll see how he, his sire, his dam and their progeny indexed within their contemporary group.

T21's WW was 17% higher than the herd average so he indexed 117 for WW. What I read into that is that he is out of a very milky dam and that he has good genetic growth potential.

On the scurs issue... Gary Witherspoon believed scurs was a visual sign of "hybrid vigour" within the hereford breed. Since scientists to date couldn't even figure out exactly how the inheritance of scurs work (many possible models without conclusive proof), I'll take that opinion with a grain of salt.
 
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SRBeef

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KNERSIE":2rwh3aj8 said:
I don't understand the 117 WW ratio. I see the EPD's show +54 WW and +86 YW where does 117 come from?

Look up his performance pedigree and under that you'll see how he, his sire, his dam and their progeny indexed within their contemporary group.

T21's WW was 17% higher than the herd average so he indexed 117 for WW. What I read into that is that he is out of a very milky dam and that he has good genetic growth potential.

On the scurs issue... Gary Witherspoon believed scurs was a visual sign of "hybrid vigour" within the hereford breed. Since scientists to date couldn't even figure out exactly how the inheritance of scurs work (many possible models without conclusive proof), I'll take that opinion with a grain of salt.

Thanks, Knersie. As usual I learn something every time I read one of your posts.

Jim
 

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SRBeef":2dghumzp said:
I don't understand the 117 WW ratio. I see the EPD's show +54 WW and +86 YW where does 117 come from?

I do see good growth from the calves but my number 1 criteria for a bull is calving ease. As far as I can tell from this spring, his calves about fell out of a wide range of larger and smaller cows and a couple first time heifers. That's what I asked Jerry for and that's what he sold me.

I also don't understand your comment about scurs. I thought that they were a negative? Someone else had a post on here recently talking about how his partners backed out of a bull purchase due to scurs...

They don't matter to me, as long as I don't have any full horned animals around. If I do I guess they will just have to be dehorned. Got to take the minuses with the pluses. I have one bull calf that looks fabulous even as young as he is but he seems to be scurred also. Why would scurs increase value??? I'll post this and look for a picture showing his scurs.

Remitall Keynote 20X is scurred.
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... E&9=5B5052

H 8E Embracer 8006 is scurred (look at the REA)
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... E&9=5B515C

CS Boomer 29F is scurred.
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 4&9=5B5F5F

The above three animals, and I am sure I can find many others similar to these, became very valuable.

I think the scurs are a sign of extra heterosis (and possible genetic outlier) within the breed which is partially the reasoning why the above bulls were so great. Additionally, your bull is crossed with horned and polled relatively recently with high quality animals, potentially increasing extra heterosis within the breed, yet the bull is not horned. The scurs represent more underlying value to me.
 
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SRBeef

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HerefordSire":1b3gibvc said:
SRBeef":1b3gibvc said:
I don't understand the 117 WW ratio. I see the EPD's show +54 WW and +86 YW where does 117 come from?

I do see good growth from the calves but my number 1 criteria for a bull is calving ease. As far as I can tell from this spring, his calves about fell out of a wide range of larger and smaller cows and a couple first time heifers. That's what I asked Jerry for and that's what he sold me.

I also don't understand your comment about scurs. I thought that they were a negative? Someone else had a post on here recently talking about how his partners backed out of a bull purchase due to scurs...

They don't matter to me, as long as I don't have any full horned animals around. If I do I guess they will just have to be dehorned. Got to take the minuses with the pluses. I have one bull calf that looks fabulous even as young as he is but he seems to be scurred also. Why would scurs increase value??? I'll post this and look for a picture showing his scurs.

Remitall Keynote 20X is scurred.
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... E&9=5B5052

H 8E Embracer 8006 is scurred (look at the REA)
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... E&9=5B515C

CS Boomer 29F is scurred.
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 4&9=5B5F5F

The above three animals, and I am sure I can find many others similar to these, became very valuable.

I think the scurs are a sign of extra heterosis (and possible genetic outlier) within the breed which is partially the reasoning why the above bulls were so great. Additionally, your bull is crossed with horned and polled relatively recently with high quality animals, potentially increasing extra heterosis within the breed, yet the bull is not horned. The scurs represent more underlying value to me.

HerefordSire":1b3gibvc said:
SRBeef":1b3gibvc said:
I don't understand the 117 WW ratio. I see the EPD's show +54 WW and +86 YW where does 117 come from?

I do see good growth from the calves but my number 1 criteria for a bull is calving ease. As far as I can tell from this spring, his calves about fell out of a wide range of larger and smaller cows and a couple first time heifers. That's what I asked Jerry for and that's what he sold me.

I also don't understand your comment about scurs. I thought that they were a negative? Someone else had a post on here recently talking about how his partners backed out of a bull purchase due to scurs...

They don't matter to me, as long as I don't have any full horned animals around. If I do I guess they will just have to be dehorned. Got to take the minuses with the pluses. I have one bull calf that looks fabulous even as young as he is but he seems to be scurred also. Why would scurs increase value??? I'll post this and look for a picture showing his scurs.

Remitall Keynote 20X is scurred.
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... E&9=5B5052

H 8E Embracer 8006 is scurred (look at the REA)
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... E&9=5B515C

CS Boomer 29F is scurred.
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 4&9=5B5F5F

The above three animals, and I am sure I can find many others similar to these, became very valuable.

I think the scurs are a sign of extra heterosis (and possible genetic outlier) within the breed which is partially the reasoning why the above bulls were so great. Additionally, your bull is crossed with horned and polled relatively recently with high quality animals, potentially increasing extra heterosis within the breed, yet the bull is not horned. The scurs represent more underlying value to me.

HS, I appreciate your comments on my bull. I guess as a real rookie in this business I have yet to understand much of it. You say the above bulls are very valuable. However the first two do not seem to be "calving ease" from their EPD's. The third one is much closer.

I don't know how I got into it, but it seems like SHF Rib Eye would be a good combination of Calving ease and other EPD's. Here is his chart:

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...0ED0D0C153BDFE6E0E5D9050CF31E1F1BE71A1D1C1811

T21 seems closer to SHF Rib Eye than to the others, except of course for the much better accuracies of the Rib Eye bull.

One thing that does not seem to be addressed by EPD's is disposition. Jerry Huth told me he emphasizes SC and disposition, among the other bull criteria.

I had a situation last Saturday where I had T-21, 4 steers and 2 bred heifers in my relatively small corral with the gates closed as I sorted off a couple steers to ship. Here I am in a small corral with a near 2000 lb bull and what seemed to be a lot of other cattle in a tight space. T-21 was sort of in the way of the tub gate where I was trying to get the steers into.

I just talked to him gently and he moved out of the way with no aggressive behavior at all. He had a calming influence on the rest of the group. It allowed me to sort off these steers into the tub area and get the tub gate closed. T21 just moved to the other end of the corral. I know I still have to be careful around him but I think disposition is especially important when operting in tight quarters as I do.

Rotated pastures twice in the past few days trying to stay ahead of the grass. Each time he just moves by me and follows the rest of the cows. This is as valuable as many of the other EPD's inmy operation.

The vet came over and did a Breeding Soundness exam a couple weeks ago. The vet said his 41.5 scrotal was on the top end of what he sees. Rest of exam was positive also.

So over all I'm very pleased with T-21. It will be interesting to see how the calves develop.

Thanks again for your information.

Jim
 

HerefordSire

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HS, I appreciate your comments on my bull. I guess as a real rookie in this business I have yet to understand much of it. You say the above bulls are very valuable. However the first two do not seem to be "calving ease" from their EPD's. The third one is much closer.

I think calving ease is overcompensated for by ranchers holding outside employment. In my view, the higher the unassisted calf size the better in regards to optimization. We can be conservative in our decisions by never having a calving issue, or we can find the limits and then backup to optimize long term cash flow. There is a good possibililty we are leaving cash on the table by not knowing the limits of genetics we work with.

I don't know how I got into it, but it seems like SHF Rib Eye would be a good combination of Calving ease and other EPD's. Here is his chart:

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-b...0ED0D0C153BDFE6E0E5D9050CF31E1F1BE71A1D1C1811

The value of a well balance bull, or a bull with multiple trait leading probabilities, like SHF Rib-Eye and T21, are extra valuable because the probability of improving existing overall Hereford genetics increases. It doesn't take too much energy to find the common denominator between the two bulls and wonder why they are likely to outperform the average of all other herds in most categories.

T21 seems closer to SHF Rib Eye than to the others, except of course for the much better accuracies of the Rib Eye bull.

I believe Rib-Eye sold for almost the equivalent of $200K USD three years ago. Your bull could be worth more than $5K unless I am mistaken. One could say the accuracies cost about $195K which is why I favor low accuracies.

One thing that does not seem to be addressed by EPD's is disposition. Jerry Huth told me he emphasizes SC and disposition, among the other bull criteria.

The SC probably comes from this 1967 line-bred model PROSPECTOR 7558. Notice how PROSPECTOR 4126 is all four great-grandfather places in the pedigree.
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 245858222E


I had a situation last Saturday where I had T-21, 4 steers and 2 bred heifers in my relatively small corral with the gates closed as I sorted off a couple steers to ship. Here I am in a small corral with a near 2000 lb bull and what seemed to be a lot of other cattle in a tight space. T-21 was sort of in the way of the tub gate where I was trying to get the steers into.

I just talked to him gently and he moved out of the way with no aggressive behavior at all. He had a calming influence on the rest of the group. It allowed me to sort off these steers into the tub area and get the tub gate closed. T21 just moved to the other end of the corral. I know I still have to be careful around him but I think disposition is especially important when operting in tight quarters as I do.

Rotated pastures twice in the past few days trying to stay ahead of the grass. Each time he just moves by me and follows the rest of the cows. This is as valuable as many of the other EPD's inmy operation.

Nice story. The same is true for the 3008 daughters I have two of which are line-bred Feltons 517 for an estimate of 50% of 517's genetic material.

The vet came over and did a Breeding Soundness exam a couple weeks ago. The vet said his 41.5 scrotal was on the top end of what he sees. Rest of exam was positive also.

This is very bullish for value in my view. I would like to see you double up on 3008 genes to see what you get.

So over all I'm very pleased with T-21. It will be interesting to see how the calves develop.

Thanks again for your information.

Jim

I would consider storing some semen from him as an insurance policy. You are welcome Jim.
 

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