Water well question

[cowboy43]

I have a good water well on rental property without electricity, It is 120 ft deep, water stands 30 ft from the top, It had a jet pump on it before electricy was removed, it still has the 2 black roll pipe going 80 ft into well , the jet has been removed from bottom of pipe. I need water because the tanks are going dry, the cheapest solar pump I have found is $1700, electricy would be too expensive to put back on rental propery, there is a stock tank close by I could pump water into so I have been thinking of different options to get the water up. One is to replace the jet and put a jet pump on it and power with a generator, another option to get a larger volume of water would be to replace the bottom jet and use an air compressor to jet the water up. Has anyone on the board used an air compressor to jet water and how big a compressor would you have to have to do so? I have a large generator on a welding machine to power an air compressor just don't know what size of compressor to get .

 

[Jogeephus]

Two questions. If power was there before why would it be too expensive to have them put a box in for you? How much water will you be needing to pump? Ie. Lots of water in a short time or 10 - 12 gallons/min over an extended period of time.

 

[BeefmasterB]

Is this a 2 inch hole? Solar is very expensive but reliable. It's just not the solar cells you have to purchase but also the control box, solar mount, downhole motor (for a bigger than 2 inch hole) and a whole lot of submersible wire. I've done it and it's pricey. Another option is that jet pump hooked up to a generator

 

[cowboy43]

The primary electric line has been removed since it has been about 40 years since the well was used and the main line is about a 1000 feet from the well , the CoOp now has the customer pay 100% of construction cost which is about $6.00 a ft. so that is out of the question for rental property. It is 4 inch casing , if I get enough water trough storage to last one day I could use a jet pump on a generator, What I thought if I could air jet the water at about 10 gallons a minute for a long period of time I could then put water back into the earthen stock tank until the rains come back. In July it will be two years since we have had enough rain at one time to make water run into the stock tanks.

 

[Jogeephus]

I had a somewhat similar problem last year during our drought so maybe I can help. Do you have access to a nurse tank? If you do, you can take the pump off the tank (or leave it on there) and take the intake hose and plumb this into the 4" casing. The hoses are normally 2" so this should fit well. This will pump about 30 gallons a minute which would quickly fill your tanks. (last one I bought was about $400) The only problem I see using this would be getting the pump to prime but I think you could find a foot valve to put on the end of the hose that goes into the well and then you could use the primer plug to fill it from above. If by chance you do have access to the complete nurse tank rig you could also get around the need of a valve by putting a T in your supply line with a valve in it. You could then use the water in the tank to fill the hose then turn the valve and this would be like holding your finger over the top of a straw and the line would be primed. Hope this makes sense. Since you will need about at least 50 foot of hose - and this stuff is expensive - you might do as I did and borrow some 2" hose from the fire department. Matter of fact, they gave me some old thick rubber hose they didn't need and it had the quick connects on it. If you don't have access to this, you could also rent whats called a mud pump. It takes a little work getting it primed when on the vertical but once its primed it will pump pretty good. But if you have to buy the nurse pump, these are in demand and you won't have any trouble selling it when you are finished with it.

Here is a link to a picture of the pump I'm referring too. Not nearly as expensive as your other alternatives. Good luck and hope this helps.

http://www.pacerpumps.com/sSeries.php

 

[Alberta farmer]

Not sure about using a pacer pump. They pump a lot of volume...the well would have to be really good to replace the volume without dropping in height down the well.
Not a geat fan of jet pumps. From the sounds of the set up(two poly pipes down the hole) it is for a deep well jet pump. You would need an air tight cap on the top of the well.
In my opinion I would suggest putting a submersible pump down the well and use the generator to power it. A submersible is more expensive than a jet pump but is almost trouble free. Just my opinion.

 

[Jogeephus]

Not sure about using a pacer pump. They pump a lot of volume...the well would have to be really good to replace the volume without dropping in height down the well.

I agree and don't think the well could recharge fast enough to replace the volume removed but the flow can be regulated by the valve on the out pipe and dropping as much hose as possible into the well would help as well. Just trying to offer a cheap and temporary fix.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Jogee you can only lift water 27 feet or so depending on the temperature outside, barometric pressure etc. The top of his water is about 30 feet down so he cannot do that. He's going to have to go with a jet pump as a minimum.

He's not kidding about the cost to run 1000 foot of power either. I just paid for 1700 feet of power line in February.

Inverters have come down in cost. I know a guy who uses solar trickle chargers on a deep cycle battery, has the battery hooked to an inverter and powers a pump with the inverter. I am not exactly sure what type of submersible pump he has. Nothing is automatic. He hooks up the inverter and turns the pump on manually. He takes the inverter with him when he shuts down the pump. He intends to take everything with him when he gives up the lease. The only bad thing was the cows getting into the system. He now has T-posts and wire panels surrounding it. He explained it all to me about a year ago and everything I am saying is based on foggy memories. Sorry I cannot be of any real help.

 

[KenB]

I would get a submersible pump, there would be no need to have a tank or pressure switch for this application.
You can buy a submersible for about $200-$300, 100 foot of poly pipe, and wire and run it with the generator.

 

[novatech]

Try and find an old pump jack.
You will need a pipe with a foot valve and the other apparatus in the bottom, same as wind mill. The pump jack can be run off a gasoline engine. We used one in place of a broken down wind mill for years.

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

I would get a submersible pump, there would be no need to have a tank or pressure switch for this application.
You can buy a submersible for about $200-$300, 100 foot of poly pipe, and wire and run it with the generator.

I agree with this completely! Get a 1/2 HP submersible, use poly pipe (probably 1" or 1.25") and power off a generator. This set-up you would only need 110V to operate this pump and flow would not be bad enough to pump the well faster than it could recharge. NOTE: With poly pipe and clamp set-up, BE SURE to attach pump to a poly rope just in case the pipe came off the clamps. Wire alone might not be secure enough to lift the pump/motor out if the pipe connection came loose.

This way, you can easily remove all your stuff and have it for another use (or sell it) if needed.

Agree on other post: You cannot "lift" (aka "suck") water past about 85% or so of the atmospheric pressure efficiently when using a "suction" type pump.

 

[No Bull]

So long as the depth of the water is more than the amount of lift you need, you can pump water with evan the smallest of air pumps. The more air, the more water. They used to make a small windmill/air pump. I don't remember the volume but it was Quite abit if it ran 24/7. I want to say 7MPH wind to get it started, but not totaly sure.

 

[Jogeephus]

Jogee you can only lift water 27 feet or so depending on the temperature outside, barometric pressure etc. The top of his water is about 30 feet down so he cannot do that. He's going to have to go with a jet pump as a minimum.

I didn't know that. I used a mud pump inside a hand dug well a few years ago and it lifted pretty well. Granted I was only about 16 foot down. Not arguing but explain this, how then did they pump water into the storage tanks that are 40 - 50 foot off the ground around these old home places?

 

[backhoeboogie]

Jogee you can only lift water 27 feet or so depending on the temperature outside, barometric pressure etc. The top of his water is about 30 feet down so he cannot do that. He's going to have to go with a jet pump as a minimum.

I didn't know that. I used a mud pump inside a hand dug well a few years ago and it lifted pretty well. Granted I was only about 16 foot down. Not arguing but explain this, how then did they pump water into the storage tanks that are 40 - 50 foot off the ground around these old home places?

I probably confused you with my wording and should not have used the term "lift". You can push water a thousand feet uphill if your pump and pipe can handle the pressure. 27.71 inches of water column (or about 2.3 feet) is 1 psi and it is a linear measurement equation so if you want to push water 100 feet up to a tank, your pump has to be capable of 43 psi or so (at sea level and 60 degree water with the stars and moon aligned... )

If your pump is 28 feet above the water and you are trying to suck it out, you're toast. It won't pump. You can use a jet or air with a water primed to make it work but you cannot simply suck it out with a pump. The poster said the top of the water was 30 feet down.

 

[Jogeephus]

Ok, I think I got it but not quite. In other words the suction would probably collapse the hose. Is that right? Again, I'm not arguing just trying to understand. How then does a Ruth Berry pump work then? Is this a jet? I have two in 50 foot wells.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Ok, I think I got it but not quite. In other words the suction would probably collapse the hose. Is that right? Again, I'm not arguing just trying to understand. How then does a Ruth Berry pump work then? Is this a jet? I have two in 50 foot wells.

It has nothing to do with pipe collapsing. It has to do with water properties and saturation. the water separates. When you hear a pump cavitating from high suction it is going to sound like there is gravel in the pump. That will start with high temperatures in the 20 foot suction range. You can boil water at 80 degrees under vacuum. Take a look at steam tables. Pressure keeps water from boiling.

If you are pumping water with a 25 foot suction, you are going to be cavitating and eventually destroy the pump impeller etc. It will be all chipped away.

If you are using an above ground pump and pumping out of a 50 foot well, my guess is you have an injector (jet). Otherwise you are doing something that is physically impossible.

 

[Jogeephus]

If you are using an above ground pump and pumping out of a 50 foot well, my guess is you have an injector (jet). Otherwise you are doing something that is physically impossible.

Haven't mastered walking on water but I have levitated over a snake beyond the limits of gravitational physics. I looked up the Ruth Berry pumps and it seems they have several models but all look the same. One had a jet inside the tank. This must be what they sell here cause a lot of people use them. Thanks for the info, very interesting stuff. BTW - where the heck am I supposed to find a steam table? :lol2: :lol2:

 

[backhoeboogie]

BTW - where the heck am I supposed to find a steam table? :lol2: :lol2:

If you do an internet search on something like, "properties of saturated steam" you'll find them.

If this link works here is one http://wea-inc.com/pdf/steamtable.pdf

 

[Alberta farmer]

I'm not real sure about the cost of a submersible. I believe the last one I bought(1/2 hp/220 volt/6 Imperial gal/min.) was $550(about four yrs. ago), but that was in Canada and I suspect a submersible in the USA would be a lot less?
I agree with Ken, a submersible and the generator is your best solution, for cost and ease of operation.