viger

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Anonymous

You loose 50% of the heterosis, or you maintaine 50% whichever way you want to look at it when breeding F1 to F1

dun

> if you breed semangus to semangus
> do you sti get the hybrd viger
 
OP
A

Anonymous

If you check the research from Kansas State University and MARC you will find that F1 to F1 decreases heterosis by 50%, similar to breeding an F1 back to one of the parent breeds.

dun

> you will still have the same
> hybrid vigor
 
OP
A

Anonymous

need the KSU web page, the research seems to be interesting, we supose that our Brahamn F1's that we cross to each other keep their hybrid vigor, but I think that we were wrong.

> If you check the research from
> Kansas State University and MARC
> you will find that F1 to F1
> decreases heterosis by 50%,
> similar to breeding an F1 back to
> one of the parent breeds.
> dun

[email protected]
 
OP
A

Anonymous

Here is just one of many for starters.

"www.oznet.ksu.edu/library/LVSTK2/C714.PDF" Thisis a PDF file, I think this one has the formula for calculating heterosis. If it doesn't let me know, I have references to a bunch of sites with the same type of information.

dun

> need the KSU web page, the
> research seems to be interesting,
> we supose that our Brahamn F1's
> that we cross to each other keep
> their hybrid vigor, but I think
> that we were wrong.
 
OP
A

Anonymous

this is interesting... i am like delaGarza.. i would have thought you would retain the vigor... an f1 is an f1 is an f1... like a brangus is a brangus... and people will tell you they run brangus cattle to have that hybrid vigor...

i guess then, you only have hybrid vigor at its best on the first generation. somewhere down the line it then becomes a breed and loses its vigor, i guess.

gene

> If you check the research from
> Kansas State University and MARC
> you will find that F1 to F1
> decreases heterosis by 50%,
> similar to breeding an F1 back to
> one of the parent breeds.

> dun

[email protected]
 
OP
A

Anonymous

> You loose 50% of the heterosis, or
> you maintaine 50% whichever way
> you want to look at it when
> breeding F1 to F1

> dun what be a good x for f1 simxangus hiefers an keep hy-viger im from mid-ten nothing $$ here but b ack
 
OP
A

Anonymous

Supposedly you will loose heterosis within severl generations with composites, at which time it's just like straight breeding again. I'm sure no mathametician (hell I can't even spell it) so all those wonderfull formulas don't do me any good. Somewhere around here I have a chart that shows the various levels of heterosis for percentages of breeds within a cross. Can't find it, looked all over, one of these days it will pop up when I'm looking for something else. If/when it does I'll post it.

dun

> this is interesting... i am like
> delaGarza.. i would have thought
> you would retain the vigor... an
> f1 is an f1 is an f1... like a
> brangus is a brangus... and people
> will tell you they run brangus
> cattle to have that hybrid
> vigor...

> i guess then, you only have hybrid
> vigor at its best on the first
> generation. somewhere down the
> line it then becomes a breed and
> loses its vigor, i guess.

> gene
 
OP
A

Anonymous

Thisis one of "those" questions. If you are looking at primarily the yeild grade market and are going to sell all the calves, Limousin. If you're looking at the quality grade market, realizing that you will loose half of the heterosis I would go back to angus. That's the one problem I see with Simangus as momma cows, for the quality grade market you don't have as many alternatives. I really think that Simmenthal or Gelbvieh X Hereford would make great momma cows. Complimentary maternal and still add ribeye and frame size can be kept within reason. 100% heterosis, then those cows bred to an angus either a real one RED or those strange colored black ones, carcass plus 100% heterosis. Seems likke a hard combination to beat. Of course that's my opinion and we all know about opinions. Some of them are worth almost as much as you pay for them.

dun
 
OP
A

Anonymous

if you cross two F1's, you retain 50% with hybrid vigor(same gebetic upmake as f1), 25% P1 and 25% P2. this is the symplistic form. in real life you heve to deal with all the different characters of the genes.

[email protected]
 
OP
A

Anonymous

I remember a question you did ask me of what kind of problems I had with Gerts (it was posted in 11/Dec) And I told you hybrid vigor, maybe it is because Santa Gertrudis is a 3 breed composite so the Santa Cruz will have the same problem (hybrid vigor)in the future.

> Supposedly you will loose
> heterosis within severl
> generations with composites, at
> which time it's just like straight
> breeding again. I'm sure no
> mathametician (hell I can't even
> spell it) so all those wonderfull
> formulas don't do me any good.
> Somewhere around here I have a
> chart that shows the various
> levels of heterosis for
> percentages of breeds within a
> cross. Can't find it, looked all
> over, one of these days it will
> pop up when I'm looking for
> something else. If/when it does
> I'll post it.

> dun

[email protected]
 
OP
A

Anonymous

The composites like Gerts Santa Cruz, Brangus etc., basically are like straight breds, there is still a bit of eterosis left but after a few generations it's pretty scanty. We used Gerts on cows that Angus and Hereford derivitives, that could be why we had such good results.

dun

> I remember a question you did ask
> me of what kind of problems I had
> with Gerts (it was posted in
> 11/Dec) And I told you hybrid
> vigor, maybe it is because Santa
> Gertrudis is a 3 breed composite
> so the Santa Cruz will have the
> same problem (hybrid vigor)in the
> future.
 
OP
A

Anonymous

I have read the article and I think that F1's cross to F1's will maintain the 100% hybrid vigor, it says that the producer should keep the breed combination as close as 1/2 and 1/2 or 1/2 and 1/4, 1/4 to maximize heterosis, so my thoughts are correct.

> If you check the research from
> Kansas State University and MARC
> you will find that F1 to F1
> decreases heterosis by 50%,
> similar to breeding an F1 back to
> one of the parent breeds.
> dun

[email protected]
 
OP
A

Anonymous

I have already read the article

> this is interesting... i am like
> delaGarza.. i would have thought
> you would retain the vigor... an
> f1 is an f1 is an f1... like a
> brangus is a brangus... and people
> will tell you they run brangus
> cattle to have that hybrid
> vigor...

> i guess then, you only have hybrid
> vigor at its best on the first
> generation. somewhere down the
> line it then becomes a breed and
> loses its vigor, i guess.

> gene

[email protected]
 
OP
A

Anonymous

I'm not sure why Gerts didn't work ass well as they should but at least we have other breeds that work excellent with our fullblood programs as well as in the commercial basis .
> I remember a question you did ask
> me of what kind of problems I had
> with Gerts (it was posted in
> 11/Dec) And I told you hybrid
> vigor, maybe it is because Santa
> Gertrudis is a 3 breed composite
> so the Santa Cruz will have the
> same problem (hybrid vigor)in the
> future.

[email protected]
 
OP
A

Anonymous

You loose the same amount breeding F1 to F1 as you would if you bred an F1 back to one of the parent breeds, it's called back breeding.

dun

> I have read the article and I
> think that F1's cross to F1's will
> maintain the 100% hybrid vigor, it
> says that the producer should keep
> the breed combination as close as
> 1/2 and 1/2 or 1/2 and 1/4, 1/4 to
> maximize heterosis, so my thoughts
> are correct.
 
OP
A

Anonymous

An exerpt from the attached article:

Retaining heterosis The maximum heterosis that can be attained for any crossbreeding system comes from mating two unrelated breeds, for example mating Charolais and Angus. We refer to a first cross animal as the F1. If we mate two F1 animals together to form the F2 we find that half of the F1 heterosis is lost. Barring inbreeding effects this half of heterosis remains in the F2 and also in the F3 and subsequent generations.

<A HREF="http://chuck.agsci.colostate.edu/~pcharter/journ/com.html" TARGET="_blank">http://chuck.agsci.colostate.edu/~pcharter/journ/com.html</A>

dun
 
OP
A

Anonymous

Dun, with all my respect, I know what back breeding is, but I read the article and what I thought of F1's and hybrid vigor is correct, think you should take a look to the article again.

> You loose the same amount breeding
> F1 to F1 as you would if you bred
> an F1 back to one of the parent
> breeds, it's called back breeding.
> dun

[email protected]
 
OP
A

Anonymous

I have read the article, it is vey interesting, not only the composite chapter but the breed resources for carcass and meat quiality, but anyway the retainig of hetersis will be complicated to resume if we read both the articles.

> An exerpt from the attached
> article:
> Retaining heterosis The maximum
> heterosis that can be attained for
> any crossbreeding system comes
> from mating two unrelated breeds,
> for example mating Charolais and
> Angus. We refer to a first cross
> animal as the F1. If we mate two
> F1 animals together to form the F2
> we find that half of the F1
> heterosis is lost. Barring
> inbreeding effects this half of
> heterosis remains in the F2 and
> also in the F3 and subsequent
> generations.

>
> <A HREF="http://chuck.agsci.colostate.edu/~pcharter/journ/com.html" TARGET="_blank">http://chuck.agsci.colostate.edu/~pcharter/journ/com.html</A>
> dun

[email protected]
 

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