Vet is stumped and so are we

[Hawk]

Caustic Burno what is Neospora?

Well, I'm not Caustic, but I looked it up in the Merck Manual and this is what they said:

"Neosporosis:
Neospora caninum is found worldwide and is the most common cause of abortion in dairy cattle in many parts of the USA. Neospora abortion is less common in beef cattle, but it is still economically significant. Abortion can occur any time after 3 mo of gestation, but is most common between 4 and 6 mo of gestation. Neospora can be associated with sporadic abortions or abortion storms, and repeat abortions in cows have been reported. Some infected calves survive and are born with paralysis or proprioceptive deficits. Dogs are the definitive host for Neospora and can be the source of infection. The role of wild canids is unknown. Cows are not clinically ill, and placental retention is not common. The fetus is usually autolyzed and rarely has gross lesions. Microscopically, nonsuppurative inflammation is common in the brain, heart, and skeletal muscles. Organisms can be identified in these tissues and the kidneys by immunohistochemical staining. Many late gestation fetuses have precolostral antibodies. Infected calves may be born alive and clinically normal. They remain infected for years and possibly for life. During pregnancy, Neospora organisms can become activated and infect the fetus. This is thought to be the most common source of infection. There is no treatment. Strict hygiene to prevent fecal contamination of feed by dogs may aid in prevention. A commercial vaccine is available."

 

[msscamp]

Are you thinking of cryptosporidium? If so, according to everything I've read, it is not a problem for cows.

that looks right but im not for sure. i didnt think it was a problem for older cattle but i didnt know for sure. just thought id suggest it cause the poor guy is really stumpt and i feel bad for 'em.

Yeah, me too.

 

[I luv herfrds]

preston39 It all started with a 5yo bred cow on 1-29 She was away from the herd and not eating , we roped her and tied her to the feed truck and dosed her with 50cc's La-200. She aborted on 2-5.
Next cow came up to the corral with the same signs, did the same treatment on 2-2 she died that afternoon.
Next cow found in pasture on 2-3 died same day. Lost another cow same day. These were 5yo's. All were bred.
On 2-4 treated four head.
Two are 4yos, one three yo, and 1 nine yo.
Both 4yos aborted on 2-5, one 3 yo never sick aborted 2-13. The three yo is still bred.
The 9 yo had a premie calf on 2-21, still alive luckily.
One 6yo cow aborted on 2-6, never sick.
Last night a cow that was never sick delivered a set of dead twins. 1 bull, 1 heifer. Other then the fact that they were not breathing nor had a heart beat they looked normal, except for their eyes. There was a large spot of white on the pupil. I got there about 3-5 minutes after they were born. She is 8yo.
Other then the respritory signs of labored breathing, white to clear mucus discharge from the nose the ones that died had foam around their mouths and one had air bubbles in her tear duct area. The skin around her eyes was purple after death.
A few of them showed no signs of illness before this happened.
cowcrazy07 Yes we did think of that, that is why we had our hay tested. The vet thought it is nitrates.
We are still waiting for blood and tissue samples sent in on the dead cow. The other two were frozen when we found them so no post could be done.
I'll keep everybody posted on what we find out.

 

[Beefy]

so they were just getting hay and water?

 

[TheBullLady]

Gosh, what an awful thing! I don't have a clue, but wanted to lend my support. Hopefully you'll find out quickly what the problem is.

 

[cfpinz]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but from the way I read it all of the cows that aborted were previously treated with LA-200. Did any abort without the treatment? If the initial condition requiring medication turns out to be respiratory, I would personally try some other treatment such as Baytril, Nuflor or Micotil. These are more powerful and require a lesser dosage, 50cc is a lot to introduce at one time. Just my thoughts, take them as you will.

Wish you the best of luck.

cfpinz

 

[Beefy]

CF, a few posts down from top she sez 3 or 4 cows aborted that were not treated with LA200.

as far as neospora goes, ive never heard tell of the cows dying. but it does tend to affect the calves eyes, ive read somewhere before.

b/c of the cows dying it makes me think it is something viral or nutritional. nutritional would probably make more sense b/c of the abortions AND deaths. botulism keeps coming to mind for some reason, although those cows tend to go down prior to dying (weakness in rear). and its usually in feed. but can be in hay too.. they definitely show signs like resp., off feed, depression, etc. but i dont know if they ever abort or not... time frame works though.

plant toxicity may be a safer bet. perhaps something in the hay to have affected so many at one time. notice anything unusual in the hay? maybe some strange mold or something?

 

[cfpinz]

Thanks Beefy, I missed that.

Don't know the particular area these cows are in but can't help but wonder if they were affected by the recent snowstorms and if that could have forced them to eat some form of vegetation they would normally not consume. Also, the mule deer throw up a flag with me. Wife's father had a bunch of cattle abort in the past from lepto carried by whitetail in our area, he vaccinates religiously now and has less trouble.

In an outbreak this severe I would imagine that it is not isolated. Talk to neighbors, vets, ext agents. Chances are someone else is going thru the same problems. If not, what are you doing differently? Grasping at straws here.

cfpinz

 

[AngusLimoX]

Have your cattle been eating pine needles?

Here's a link that may help, very similar symptoms to yours.

Sorry for the loss , here's wishing you a lot of luck quickly getting a grip on this one. Keep us posted.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

 

[*Cowgirl*]

If you and your vet really have no clue and are at ends, I'd get a 2nd vet to come out. If he/she doesn't figure anything out, I might try a university.

 

[mitchwi]

On an off chance - Was all the medication from the same bottle? Could something be wrong with the meds?

 

[I luv herfrds]

Called the vet this morning. Blood and tissue test results are back. All I could find out before he got called away was the lung tissue has pasterella(Hope I spelled it correctly). He is to call tomorrow.
Beefy the cows have a mineral range feeder with a mineral trace salt block, 12-12 Nutrulix mineral, and 2 Nutrulix cattle tubs.
The range land they are in are both native and tame grasses, the tame grass is creasted wheat. Native is a mix of needle grass and another kind. The only trees that are in our pasture are cottonwoods, some lilacs, chokecherries and some buck brush. No pine trees.
We feed our cattle everyday, it also depends on the weather. If it is too warm and they are not too interested in their hay we leave off the next day, but when it is really cold we will see how fast they "attack" the hay. We were doing a rotation of feeding 1 oat bale one day and the next feeding 1 oat and 1 grass bale the next. This was during the extreme cold we were having.
The meds came from 2 different bottles.
Cowgirl finding this web site was a God sent. All the people who have responded have given us more information to look into then I would have gotten from the neighbors.

 

[milkmaid]

Called the vet this morning. Blood and tissue test results are back. All I could find out before he got called away was the lung tissue has pasterella(Hope I spelled it correctly). He is to call tomorrow.

Pasturella. Bacterial respiratory infection. It could be you just got hit hard with a nasty case of pneumonia, unfortunately.

You mentioned making a change in your vaccination program... I saw plenty of stuff for the calves and yearlings but not for the older cows, who are the ones that really need it. All cows should get a 5-way viral for BVD types I and II, IBR, BRSV, PI3, a 5-way for lepto, as well as vibrio, and a clostridial 7 or 8-way vaccination. As Scotty mentioned, that's conviniently wrapped up in the Bovishield Gold FP 5 VL5 and Virashield 6 VL5. That should be standard for your herd. There are separate vaccinations for pasturella and other bacterias that can cause respiratory infections.

I've never heard of LA200 causing abortions in any stage of pregnancy, and I've used it on plenty of cows.... BUT, I do know that a high fever can cause fetal death, and a combination of a respiratory infection and stress could potentially have caused the cows to abort.

 

[Alan]

I've never heard of LA200 causing abortions in any stage of pregnancy, and I've used it on plenty of cows

I used LA200 on a case of pink eye last fall cow was about 3 months pregnant. I called Pfizer before using, I asked about using one dose, no real problems at any stage of pregnancy. The bottle label say it can cause slower growth in calves during early pregnancy and no effect on late term.

Herfrds, While I'm not part of the conversation between you and your Vet, my impression is your vet needs to pay more attention to your case. You have lost 14 head so far and it seems like your vet is hard to contact and hard to get an answer from. May be time to find a second opinion you can get copies of all the test from your current vet and take them to someone who it seems to me will care a bit more. Again I'm not inside your conversations with your vet, but it's the impression I'm getting. I know my vet would be all over the case if I had lost that many head.

JMO,
Alan

 

[mtncows]

i only scrolled through quickly but did anyone check the oat hay for mold? Sounds like poison to me but I had never heard of neospora which sounds like the culprit too.Hopefully not but you could have more than one thong going on.If you suspect the feed and can you might change hay.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

A high fever will cause abortions. Possibly. the ones that "weren't sick" actually had been sick with a fever & was not noticed. Pasteurella is nasty. I would sure hit everything left with a Past. vaccine, along with the BoveShield or other MLV at correct timing.
Didn't your vet make that recommendation??

 

[I luv herfrds]

Alan this vet is better then the one that retired. The one that retired was always asking us, "What do you think it is," or "What do you think I should do?" That was not fun and that is why we never asked him about a vaccine program.
Within the first death the new vet was out here for the next three days, even on his day off, trying to find the cause. Calving season has started here and to give you an idea of how big of an area he covers, alone, the fire company i belong to covers 250 square miles. Times that by four and you have an idea.
This new vet is helping us set up a new vaccine program and with his advice and everybody who answered my call for help we are going to vaccs Bovi Shield 5 Gold and Virashield 6.
I talked with our vet this morning, he was on the road heading out to a cow that was down, and tests came back clean except for the Pasturella and they also found other bacteria in the lung sample. He suspects that the cow was breathing hard from the pasturella and inhaled some other bacteria.
Jeanne we walked through our herd everyday looking and listening for a cow that might be breathing heavy, but we never looked for a cow with a fever. His recommendation is to vaccinate this spring everything, cows, calves, and yearlings, before we turn them out with the bull, preferably a month before. He did recommend this in November when he Bangsed the replacements. We just never thought that this would happen.

Thank you everyone who wrote in and passed on their knowledge. It has been very educational and I will keep coming back to this site and "pick" your brains. As my grandfather told me, you never quit learning.