Welcome Dan... I might be interested in one of those bulls. I'm also going to experiment with some legumes this year to get the protein level up in our bahia. Will let you know how it goes. Be sure to give me a shout next spring! Sent you a PM with my info. Thanks!
Very, Very Old Angus Genetics
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Just reviving an old thread. We are currently using an Alexegi of Craigie son on our pure Craigie line cows and a Lodge of Wye son on the Wye line. Had a fabulous Forceful of Wye heifer calved in 15 inches of snow in around 0 degrees (normal for some of you but all time record setting in KY) a few days ago. Still trying to figure out how to use a Jotham Eric of Craigie bull calf out of our best Jols Eric of Craigie daughter (and maybe our best overall cow).
toughntender
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Just wondering if you guys were able to get any growth bred back in without sacrificing some of the other traits. If so, how?
WalnutCrest
Well-known member
You can select for growth if you keep your own bulls.
All you have to do is use any of the widely accepted frame-score charts and bull calves' actual weights at various ages to determine the % of the projected mature weight they are at any given period of time. The faster they're maturing, the better their growth rate (and, probably, the higher their fertility). This really only works for comparing contemporaries ...
All you have to do is use any of the widely accepted frame-score charts and bull calves' actual weights at various ages to determine the % of the projected mature weight they are at any given period of time. The faster they're maturing, the better their growth rate (and, probably, the higher their fertility). This really only works for comparing contemporaries ...
toughntender
Well-known member
AllForage":6je7lx4c said:
Milk for one. If you start selecting for higher weaning weights (ie growth) you could inadvertently start selecting for more milk.
WalnutCrest- I like the idea of only comparing contemporaries, and you have probably described the most logical selection process for growth. Won't you also be selecting for higher relative intake as well? What I was really trying to ask with my poorly worded question above is, in real life, under actual conditions, has anybody been able to select for higher growth rates, and after using said bulls still maintained a grass functional cowherd?
If the farm and management stay consistent, I think the environment will take care of the proper milking level. Too much to open and culled. I have also read some folks think growth is not as relaed to milk as most believe.
I believe a farms resources will find a ceiling on performance by the protein/energy limitations. The question is are you willing to push the limits to find the ceiling? Then most likely losing years of work to backtrack some.
I believe a farms resources will find a ceiling on performance by the protein/energy limitations. The question is are you willing to push the limits to find the ceiling? Then most likely losing years of work to backtrack some.
WalnutCrest
Well-known member
toughntender":1la5ut98 said:
I think you will have a far more functional cowherd with better growth rates. Realize that efficiency is generally adversarial with absolute growth ... so, depending on your cow height, your hip height may lessen (but your girth, width, and length may be enhanced).
One of the side effects is that you're selecting animals that will do the best on your place and under your management to produce the next generation ... and after a couple of generations, you have cattle adapted to you and your situation.
I also believe that if you follow the logical extension of this, you'll select for more hormonally balanced and fertile animals, too.
Agreeing with Walnutcrest. Also selecting for growth may be a little wrong, better to select against low growth. What I mean is that the slowest growing, the dinks if you will, have all kinds of weaknesses that result in low growth. I feel it is more important to avoid these, than to use those with the highest growth, not only does all growth come with a cost, but also too much selection pressure for high growth may hinder development in other areas.
andybob
Well-known member
Another herd based on native strain Angus; http://www.dunlouiseangus.com/
We used some imported semen Commander bond and Jipsey Earl, best growing bunch of calves 3 yrs running, built solid... growth throughout the winter was the best we ever had, on very limited grain.... and we still use some of the older blood lines from time to time, R&J Spade, GT Maxiumum...Hoff Hi Hand!
dbrews1954
Well-known member
the pics look a lot like the lowline angus of today
I have some Jipsey Earl semen in the tank 10 straws that I will sell cheap.
gizmom
gizmom
Backbone Ranch
Well-known member
gizmom":159zhb1u said:
He looks to be a very good bull in my opinion. He definitely seems to show the "older" angus look of being smaller framed, really broad, with a lot of capacity.
I have seen some Jipsey Earl calves that worked really well, he just didn't work for us. We had a few good ones but more misses than hits with him. Not trying to dis the bull but some just don't click with your genetics and he was one that didn't work for us. That being said I love the BC Matrix bull he just left us with some beautiful daughters that worked really well for us. One of our very close friends in Alabama used him and he just tanked in his herd. The weird thing about it was we have very similar genetics but I agreed with him Matrix didn't work for him. It is amazing how genetics work, I think that is my favorite part of the cattle business.
gizmom
gizmom
WalnutCrest
Well-known member
gizmom":3d9jk1bq said:
Possibly for me, too.
Although I do love just listening to them rip grass...very cathartic.
reviving an old thread for fun, Monday we have 26 recips lined up to get embryos out of Fornson of Wye x Forceful of Wye sired dam, George of Swiftbrook out of Alexegi of Craigi, Alezus of Craigie, and Forward of Wickwire sired group of three donors, and also Jols Eric of Craigie out of the same donors, and lastly Black Lode of Craigie out of a Jols Eric of Craigie sired donor. Been noted above that the Craigie cattle in later years were linebred to Prince Paul of Barnoldby through his sons Genkins and George of Swiftbrook, both imported from Ireland in the 1950's.
From my experience, the farther you go back, the less likely those cows will work below a certain latitude. They don't appreciate South Ga. We've had a tick of George of Swiftbrook and Ballot of Belladrum, Jipsey Early, Dunloise Red Native and some older Wye bulls 1-2 generations back in the pedigree, and while phenotype is unmistakable (small to moderate framed, deep and easy fleshing) coat quality has typically not worked for our heat. The United Kingdom does not equal bahia grass and 9+ months of heat and humidity. The Oliver Family Angus herd has produced some locally adapted cattle that trace back to those older bloodlines without much outside influence, but has been relatively closed for 4 decades. (using Wye as their outside source). I would argue the more your environment, management and soil type matches the environment of those older pedigrees, the more likely they will work, pending your marketing plan.
