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Value of pedigree for cross-bred cattle.

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Ky hills

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Warren Allison said:
kenny thomas said:
I'm afraid you can't bet on no pinkeye. I gave shots for pinkeye to probably 15 black calves this summer.

Black Hereford?

Sorry, but nothing in a black Hereford to make them immune to pinkeye. I’ve treated it in a lot of breeds including Angus and BWF as well as Herefords which is where the black in black Herefords is supposed to come from. I do believe though that the Brahman influence in the Brangus would give some resistance to pink eye though.
 

kenny thomas

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I'm old and senile but I remember professors speaking about crossbreeding and they always recommended using a pure bred bull to get consistency. I still believe that. The momma cow can be a cross and make a great cow but I enjoy a pure bred bull still.
 

MurraysMutts

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My bwf crossbred bull made pretty consistent calves across a broad range of cows. I was not dissatisfied with him.
I'm super excited to see what my purebred hereford bull and my charolais bull do tho!
I hope I'm surprised at the consistency and growth.

That being said, I dont think i would pay more money to know the cattle I'm buying are from registered crossbred animals. That's pretty obvious usually just by looking at em.
 

Nesikep

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My last bull was a 3 way cross and had very uniform offspring.. Pretty much every single one had the color pattern of momma

daughter, momma, and son, except for momma's white flank, they have the same white star and white hind socks


Momma and daughter


Brothers
 

Rafter S

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Warren Allison said:
Brute 23 said:
Brangus started in the 1930s... Black Hereford 1994... according to the interweb.

Most the people on this board have been in the cattle business longer than Black Herefords have. :lol:

Maybe there is a niche market in your are for them but not here.

The commercial heifer deal for the 4H has gotten really popular. They like stuff like that. Momma and daddy will pay good for them and Gmaw and Gpaw will pay really good for them. Might be a good market to look in to.

The niche market here, and I reckon, most everywhere else in the US, is for Black Baldies. Using reg, tested homozygous Black Herefords instead of reg Herefords, insures there wont be any Red Baldies.

It also increases the amount of Angus blood and decreases the percentage of traditional Hereford, which some people will find less desirable.
 

skeeter swatter

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Warren Allison said:
Hello. I have been reading these forums for a couple of years now, but just recently registered to be able to post. I may have put this question in the wrong category, and if did, I apologize. I couldn't think of a good title for the thread, so let me explain. I have a client who has AI bred a herd of registered Brangus cows, to some registered Black Hereford bulls. These cows will be coming in late November, early December. They have always liked Black Baldies, and the past couple of years used Hereford bulls and/or semen, and some calves came out red. The whole purpose the Black Hereford breed was developed for, was to insure a black black baldy calf. Well, at least one of the main reasons. The clients' intent is to produce an Ultra Black Baldy. They had bought some of their Brangus in the past bred to Angus, and the Ultra Blacks did well for them as far as selling replacement heifers. and the Ultra Black steers did well, too. But here is my question(s) : All of the cows are registered Brangus, and of course the Black Hereford bulls are. They have kept records of what cow was bred to which bull. IF you were buying these "Ultra Black Baldy" heifers, would it be of any value to you, to receive a copy of the dam's and sire's registration papers on each one? Would they bring significantly more money per head? It won't be too much trouble to produce these. The papers on all of the Brangus and Black Hereford cattle, and donor bulls, are scanned into their computers, so all someone would have to do is just create a new pdf file with both papers in it. Just wanted some opinions on whether it would be worth the trouble. Thanks!!

No offense but to me it seems a waste of a good Brangus cow. Also many black herefords carry a red gene.
 
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Warren Allison

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Ky hills said:
Warren Allison said:
kenny thomas said:
I'm afraid you can't bet on no pinkeye. I gave shots for pinkeye to probably 15 black calves this summer.

Black Hereford?

Sorry, but nothing in a black Hereford to make them immune to pinkeye. I’ve treated it in a lot of breeds including Angus and BWF as well as Herefords which is where the black in black Herefords is supposed to come from. I do believe though that the Brahman influence in the Brangus would give some resistance to pink eye though.

Well, I learned something today, Kenny. I don't doubt what you said at all. My next door neighbor when I was growing up, had registered Herefords my first 17 years of life. I remember back then, seeing the cows with medicine and/or patches on their eyes, and he told me it was pinkeye. My senior year, he converted ( in a week) to a herd of Registered Charolais, and I do not recall seeing any of them being treated for it. He had them til he died in 2006. Doesn't mean they didn't, though. My grandfather raised Angus, some grade, some registered, til he died in 1993. When Pinzgauers first came to GA in the 70's, he bought 3 cows and ran them in the pastures for several years. I myself bought a Santa Gertrudis cow, and 2 Brafords and a Brangus cow, late 70's early 80's and ran them in his pasture for a few years. My brother had a Charolais/Hereford show heifer, that made one of the best cows we had. I don't recall any of ours ever getting pink eye. Maybe it was the Brahman in the Brafords, or the Charolais in the Char/Herf cow? Personally, since about 1980 til about 5 years ago, the only cattle I fooled with much were Corriente and Longhorns for roping. In the 2000's, we'd breed some to Brangus to get polled steers and heifers for team penning, sorting etc. Never recall pinkeye in any of these cattle, either. I guess I just had a pre-conceived notion that pinkeye was a Hereford thing, and black cattle didn't get it. Do you think that while black cattle can get it, as you have seen first hand, that Herefords may be more prone to pinkeye?
 

Ky hills

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Warren Allison said:
Ky hills said:
Warren Allison said:
Black Hereford?

Sorry, but nothing in a black Hereford to make them immune to pinkeye. I’ve treated it in a lot of breeds including Angus and BWF as well as Herefords which is where the black in black Herefords is supposed to come from. I do believe though that the Brahman influence in the Brangus would give some resistance to pink eye though.

Well, I learned something today, Kenny. I don't doubt what you said at all. My next door neighbor when I was growing up, had registered Herefords my first 17 years of life. I remember back then, seeing the cows with medicine and/or patches on their eyes, and he told me it was pinkeye. My senior year, he converted ( in a week) to a herd of Registered Charolais, and I do not recall seeing any of them being treated for it. He had them til he died in 2006. Doesn't mean they didn't, though. My grandfather raised Angus, some grade, some registered, til he died in 1993. When Pinzgauers first came to GA in the 70's, he bought 3 cows and ran them in the pastures for several years. I myself bought a Santa Gertrudis cow, and 2 Brafords and a Brangus cow, late 70's early 80's and ran them in his pasture for a few years. My brother had a Charolais/Hereford show heifer, that made one of the best cows we had. I don't recall any of ours ever getting pink eye. Maybe it was the Brahman in the Brafords, or the Charolais in the Char/Herf cow? Personally, since about 1980 til about 5 years ago, the only cattle I fooled with much were Corriente and Longhorns for roping. In the 2000's, we'd breed some to Brangus to get polled steers and heifers for team penning, sorting etc. Never recall pinkeye in any of these cattle, either. I guess I just had a pre-conceived notion that pinkeye was a Hereford thing, and black cattle didn't get it. Do you think that while black cattle can get it, as you have seen first hand, that Herefords may be more prone to pinkeye?

The way I have always heard it is that the white faces and resulting lack of pigmentation around the eyes of Herefords and Charolais makes them more susceptible to pinkeye. I used to have a herd of registered Charolais and while we didn’t usually have major problems 2 or 3 cases of pink eye a year with them. I firmly believe that pinkeye is as much a management issue as anything. Good mineral program, adequate fly control, keeping pastures mowed to keep weeds and seed heads from irritating eyes are all factors that greatly reduce outbreaks. I have also noticed that when it gets dry and dusty eye problems seem to crop up. Genetics can play a role also, the way the eyes are set affects too, it desirable if the eyes are set in the head so that they are somewhat protected and not set where they are bulging out to the point that they can easily get irritated.
There are several strains of pinkeye and sometimes bringing in new animals can open them to a different strain. In the years before I had Herefords, I bought at least 2 Angus bulls that got pinkeye when nothing else in the herd showed any signs of it.
 
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Warren Allison

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Wanna thank everyone for the excellent input on my thread. I never intended for this to be a debate on whether Black Herefords are a breed or not. Or their merits or negatives. I remember the same things being said and written about Brangus, Brafords, Beefmasters, and Santa Gertrudis when they first appeared on the scene here in GA. But, I did get the feedback I was looking for, and most answers kind of confirmed what I already thought to myself. With this herd of 120 registered, top-line Brangus cows, about 90 AI-ed to about 6 different registered, proven Black Hereford sires (The other 30 or so, they AI-ed to 4 registered high Chianina percentage Chi-Angus bulls. They wanna see if they can get a "super" or "mega" Ultra Black as another replacement alternative) I think that it wouldn't hurt a thing, and may help at the time of sale..for the heifers, at least.. for them to offer to the buyer a document with a copy of the sire's and dam's papers, and the birth and weaning weights recorded. It will cost a few pennies worth of ink and paper, and about 3 minutes to click, drag, save and print for each one. I agree, and always thought, no one would pay a couple hundred or more per head for this. But, if I were a buyer, looking at sets of Brangus Black Baldy replacement heifers or cows for $XXX a head, and these were available with this info for the same price of $XXX a head.... I think I myself, and most others, would probably pick these, if other factors were equal as far as the quality of the animals. I wanna see these calves myself, once they start dropping late fall. I will get some pics of them. They had also put together a herd of about 20 registered Black Hereford cows. They bred 10 of these to 2 of their own reg Brangus bulls in June for some spring calves, so will be interesting to see if there is a discernable difference in the 2 crops. The other 10, they bred to a Reg Brahma. Wanna see if the can get some F1 BLACK Brafords, that aren't tiger striped. Anyway, thanks for the feedback!
 

Brute 23

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I have always been told, no science behind it, dont buy animals where you can see their eyes, especially the white parts. It's the "goggle eyes" or what ever they call it. I was always told that's a northern thing.

When you look at a Brahman it looks that they are mad, or mean. That's the construction of their face. Their eyes are not very exposed.

I've seen both Angus and Herefords where their eyes were very exposed and Ive seen it where their facial build covered their eyes more.

Not sure if that has any thing to do with it but we have quite a few white faced cattle and I've have never treated pink eye. They run in some miserable country too. Even though the face is white... the eyes have some cover.

I've seen the same thing in American bulldogs whith white faces and how its built and eye problems.

Just a thought.
 
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Warren Allison

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Brute 23 said:
I have always been told, no science behind it, dont buy animals where you can see their eyes, especially the white parts. It's the "goggle eyes" or what ever they call it. I was always told that's a northern thing.

When you look at a Brahman it looks that they are mad, or mean. That's the construction of their face. Their eyes are not very exposed.

I've seen both Angus and Herefords where their eyes were very exposed and Ive seen it where their facial build covered their eyes more.

Not sure if that has any thing to do with it but we have quite a few white faced cattle and I've have never treated pink eye. They run in some miserable country too. Even though the face is white... the eyes have some cover.

I've seen the same thing in American bulldogs whith white faces and how its built and eye problems.

Just a thought.
Now what I do know a lot about is horses! People always said that Appaloosas. who have a white cornea like we do, are crazy, and attribute it to the eye. But, what makes them ( or did) make them "crazy" was the same thing that gave them scrubby manes and tails, and weak hooves. People bred for loud color only, at the beginning of the registry, and didn't pay attention to temperment, conformation , etc, for so many years. Lots of "horsemen" won't buy one, if they have the "crazy eyes". :)
 
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Warren Allison

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Went down there today to carry them a horse and pick one up. 86 of the 100 Brangus cows have come in, and they have 86 black baldy calves. They gonna call these Ultra Black Baldies. Those heifers will be homozygous black, too. Well so will the steers, but it won't matter. Those other 14 didn't take when they were AI'd, so they pasture bred them to a Chi-Angus bull. Gonna call these Magnum Ultra Blacks. This spring they will calve about 20 or so reg Brahmas, AI'd to Black Hereford bulls. Hoping these f1 Black Brafords will be black and white, with no tiger stripes.
 
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Warren Allison

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Hope that they turn out as good as the labels.
Well, don't see why they wouldn't. The Brangus x Black Hereford will be superior to red Hereford x Brangus black baldies, in that these replacement heifers will be homozygous black. And replacement heifers were their goal in these crossings. Breed them to a black bull, and you will get a black calf. Same thing with the Chi-angus x Brangus ultra blacks. They are homozygous black,. and will wean a bigger calf than the Angus x Brangus ultra blacks will. They told me yesterday that they intend to breed any of those heifers they keep, to a Black Hereford bull as well. Dunno what these Black Brafords will do, as I don't know what color genes white Brahmans carry. These f1s will be at least heterozygous black, so should do well bred to black Simmentals, Limousines, etc. I had a few f1 Brafords over the years, and have known others that had a lot. I always considered f1 Brafords to be excellent mommas. Any of the ones I ever had, seemed to get their temperment and docility from the Hereford parent.
 

Ky hills

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Well, don't see why they wouldn't. The Brangus x Black Hereford will be superior to red Hereford x Brangus black baldies, in that these replacement heifers will be homozygous black. And replacement heifers were their goal in these crossings. Breed them to a black bull, and you will get a black calf. Same thing with the Chi-angus x Brangus ultra blacks. They are homozygous black,. and will wean a bigger calf than the Angus x Brangus ultra blacks will. They told me yesterday that they intend to breed any of those heifers they keep, to a Black Hereford bull as well. Dunno what these Black Brafords will do, as I don't know what color genes white Brahmans carry. These f1s will be at least heterozygous black, so should do well bred to black Simmentals, Limousines, etc. I had a few f1 Brafords over the years, and have known others that had a lot. I always considered f1 Brafords to be excellent mommas. Any of the ones I ever had, seemed to get their temperment and docility from the Hereford parent.
Not knocking what they are doing. Not sure the black Hereford calves will be superior to red Herefords, especially if breeding those females back to black bulls anyways I would think registered Angus or Brangus bulls would result in black calves. We are using a BWF bull that is out of an Angus bull and a BWF cow and also have a couple more BWF bull prospects coming on, but half of our cows are red. If our cows were all or mostly straight bred black I would go with a red Hereford and just accept the few that may come out red.
 

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There is also a difference between “pedigreed” and “registered”-a pedigree costs nothing, doesn’t contribute to long-term tracing in a national database, but is informative regarysire and dam. Registration nationally is an added cost, which in this case may not add anything to the future calf value.
 
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Warren Allison

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There is also a difference between “pedigreed” and “registered”-a pedigree costs nothing, doesn’t contribute to long-term tracing in a national database, but is informative regarysire and dam. Registration nationally is an added cost, which in this case may not add anything to the future calf value.
There is no registry for either of these crosses. They have the registration papers for the Brangus, Chi- Angus and Black Herefords scanned into their computers, and it will be a simple matter of combining the 2 PDF files into a third PDF file,. for each heifer. Yes, this will be a pedigree record, not any kind of registration papers. The value, I guess, would be that you'd have proof these replacement heifers, being homozygous black, will always throw a black calf. And maybe for showing in commercial classes at fairs? In 1974, several of us in FFA showed in the new ( to us) cross-bred or commercial classes. I had a Charolais- Hereford heifer, and my buddy had a Charolais-Simmental heifer. We had bought them at the same place. Seems like we had folders for them,. with the sire and dam's papers in them, but dunno if it was required? Lord, that was 46 years ago!
 
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Warren Allison

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Not knocking what they are doing. Not sure the black Hereford calves will be superior to red Herefords, especially if breeding those females back to black bulls anyways I would think registered Angus or Brangus bulls would result in black calves. We are using a BWF bull that is out of an Angus bull and a BWF cow and also have a couple more BWF bull prospects coming on, but half of our cows are red. If our cows were all or mostly straight bred black I would go with a red Hereford and just accept the few that may come out red.
Well, the reason I said superior, is that these heifers will always have black calves, whereas a traditional black baldy...Hereford x Angus.. can half a red calf, even bred to a registered Angus or Brangus, unless those bulls are tested homozygous for black. There may be some red angus in a black angus or Brangus bull. Many a breeder, who has had a high-dollar Angus( for instance) cow die, has just bought a grade angus cow, and kept on registering her calves as the dead cow's calves. Or same thing if a high-dollar bull died. That's how a calf out of a traditonal black baldy, by an Angus bull, might come out red. I dunno if any cattle breeds require DNA to register now days, but several horse breeds started doing this 20 years or so ago. If you got one of these Black Hereford x Brangus bull calves, and made it your BWF bull, then all of your calves would be black, even from your red cows.
 

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