Value of pedigree for cross-bred cattle.

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Hello. I have been reading these forums for a couple of years now, but just recently registered to be able to post. I may have put this question in the wrong category, and if did, I apologize. I couldn't think of a good title for the thread, so let me explain. I have a client who has AI bred a herd of registered Brangus cows, to some registered Black Hereford bulls. These cows will be coming in late November, early December. They have always liked Black Baldies, and the past couple of years used Hereford bulls and/or semen, and some calves came out red. The whole purpose the Black Hereford breed was developed for, was to insure a black black baldy calf. Well, at least one of the main reasons. The clients' intent is to produce an Ultra Black Baldy. They had bought some of their Brangus in the past bred to Angus, and the Ultra Blacks did well for them as far as selling replacement heifers. and the Ultra Black steers did well, too. But here is my question(s) : All of the cows are registered Brangus, and of course the Black Hereford bulls are. They have kept records of what cow was bred to which bull. IF you were buying these "Ultra Black Baldy" heifers, would it be of any value to you, to receive a copy of the dam's and sire's registration papers on each one? Would they bring significantly more money per head? It won't be too much trouble to produce these. The papers on all of the Brangus and Black Hereford cattle, and donor bulls, are scanned into their computers, so all someone would have to do is just create a new pdf file with both papers in it. Just wanted some opinions on whether it would be worth the trouble. Thanks!!
 
:welcome: It's nice to be able to see the sire and dam or the bull bred to of any cattle I'm looking at purchasing to have an idea what they might turn out like, but I dont think providing registration papers of the sire and dam of them would necessarily help a commercial/crossbred heifer bring more or sell faster. If the cattle's genetics are from a proven program, it might be helpful to mention which one they came from when advertising them. For example if someone was selling F-1 Brangus heifers, they might say they were out of Angus cows and J.D. Hudgins Brahman bulls. Some buyers that might not mean much to, but that might be a good selling point with others. When I'm looking at buying, I definitely think it's a good sign if someone is familiar with their cattle and can tell some history on them. Good cattle will sell themselves when folks see them. It sounds like they have done a lot of work to put their herd together and Have kept good records. Sorry if I rambled on and didn't provide any useful information. Others will probably chime in.
 
If providing the papers is that simple, and doesn't cost anything, I don't see a downside to it, but I'd be very surprised if people would pay extra because of it.
 
No. They took some really nice registered Brangus cows and devalued their calf crop by AI-ing to a crossbred, novelty bull.

The heifers should basically be valued off their current composition like any other crossbred heifer.

The screwed the pooch IMO from a value stand point. They could have AI-ed to top Brangus, Angus, or Hereford genetics and increased their calf value by fully utilizing the lineage of the parents.

... but if they like black mots they got them... until their back Hereford throws a red calf. :)
 
Brute 23 said:
No. They took some really nice registered Brangus cows and devalued their calf crop by AI-ing to a crossbred, novelty bull.

The heifers should basically be valued off their current composition like any other crossbred heifer.

The screwed the pooch IMO from a value stand point. They could have AI-ed to top Brangus, Angus, or Hereford genetics and increased their calf value by fully utilizing the lineage of the parents.

... but if they like black mots they got them... until their back Hereford throws a red calf. :)

I'm afraid I have to agree. The calves would have likely been more valuable bred to a Brangus or Hereford (and in some areas specifying horned Hereford would have been still better).
 
Brute 23 said:
No. They took some really nice registered Brangus cows and devalued their calf crop by AI-ing to a crossbred, novelty bull.

The heifers should basically be valued off their current composition like any other crossbred heifer.

The screwed the pooch IMO from a value stand point. They could have AI-ed to top Brangus, Angus, or Hereford genetics and increased their calf value by fully utilizing the lineage of the parents.

... but if they like black mots they got them... until their back Hereford throws a red calf. :)

Not hardly. Reg Black Herefords are an established breed. No more novelty than a Brangus. They are 3/8ths Ang, 5/8ths Hereford, like a Brangus is 3/8ths Brahman, 5/8ths Angus. The BH semen they used are from bulls tested homozygous for black. They had bred reg Brangus to Reg Hereford before, and this cross will throw red calves occasionally....more so than the traditional Angus/Hereford cross for Black Baldies.
 
I think that like others have said, it may be good marketing point for some people to be able to see registration papers, but most it probably wouldn't make a lot of difference. If they are from well known breeding programs genetics then it might be of some benefit.
My personal opinion is that with commercial calves the visual quality on the day of sale is the main factor. If they are good calves then they should sell ok in comparison but if the visual quality is less than good then the pedigree history is not really going to add anything.
Good quality BWF heifers are usually pretty well received.
 
Ky hills said:
I think that like others have said, it may be good marketing point for some people to be able to see registration papers, but most it probably wouldn't make a lot of difference. If they are from well known breeding programs genetics then it might be of some benefit.
My personal opinion is that with commercial calves the visual quality on the day of sale is the main factor. If they are good calves then they should sell ok in comparison but if the visual quality is less than good then the pedigree history is not really going to add anything.
Good quality BWF heifers are usually pretty well received.

Yep. I agree about the calves..the steers will be sold at weaning. The heifers, though, they intend to sell as 2 yr old open, or sometimes bred, heifers. May raise some on up and sell as a 3 n 1, calf by the side and bumping. They do intend to record birth and weaning weights on this first batch this fall, which can go on the pdf file with the pedigrees as well. Again, dunno what value this would be, except maybe for their own benefit as they decide which cows pair best with what bulls. But, if that data is available for a buyer, too, along with the pedigree, it at least shows a buyer that they are putting in the research and effort to produce good quality broodstock. It has been 45-50 years since I was in 4H and FFA, so don't really know if any of this info would be helpful if someone bought a steer or heifer to show. I guess they still have commercial classes?
 
I have a bunch of crossbred mutts, and can tell you their ancestry going back 5-7 generations at least on the dam's side, and most all our bulls were registered to whatever respective breed they were.
Being able to show what the parents were is a good thing, but registering them to the breed registry is probably going to be a waste of time and money
 
Nesikep said:
I have a bunch of crossbred mutts, and can tell you their ancestry going back 5-7 generations at least on the dam's side, and most all our bulls were registered to whatever respective breed they were.
Being able to show what the parents were is a good thing, but registering them to the breed registry is probably going to be a waste of time and money

I agree, and they are not trying to start a registry. They are just thinking of offering a copy of the Brangus dam's papers, and the Black Hereford sire's papers, for each heifer.
 
Brangus started in the 1930s... Black Hereford 1994... according to the interweb.

Most the people on this board have been in the cattle business longer than Black Herefords have. :lol:

Maybe there is a niche market in your are for them but not here.

The commercial heifer deal for the 4H has gotten really popular. They like stuff like that. Momma and daddy will pay good for them and Gmaw and Gpaw will pay really good for them. Might be a good market to look in to.
 
Brute 23 said:
Brangus started in the 1930s... Black Hereford 1994... according to the interweb.

Most the people on this board have been in the cattle business longer than Black Herefords have. :lol:

Maybe there is a niche market in your are for them but not here.

The commercial heifer deal for the 4H has gotten really popular. They like stuff like that. Momma and daddy will pay good for them and Gmaw and Gpaw will pay really good for them. Might be a good market to look in to.

The niche market here, and I reckon, most everywhere else in the US, is for Black Baldies. Using reg, tested homozygous Black Herefords instead of reg Herefords, insures there wont be any Red Baldies.
 
Warren Allison said:
Brute 23 said:
Brangus started in the 1930s... Black Hereford 1994... according to the interweb.

Most the people on this board have been in the cattle business longer than Black Herefords have. :lol:

Maybe there is a niche market in your are for them but not here.

The commercial heifer deal for the 4H has gotten really popular. They like stuff like that. Momma and daddy will pay good for them and Gmaw and Gpaw will pay really good for them. Might be a good market to look in to.

The niche market here, and I reckon, most everywhere else in the US, is for Black Baldies. Using reg, tested homozygous Black Herefords instead of reg Herefords, insures there wont be any Red Baldies.

If the cows are registered black Brangus then it should be known if they are red carriers or not and if not a real red Hereford would be more of a hybrid vigor benefit. We are currently using a bull out of an Angus bull and a F1 black baldy cow on a group of mostly Hereford and red crossbred cows. For our black cows it's hard to beat a good growthy red Hereford in my opinion.
 
Ky hills said:
If the cows are registered black Brangus then it should be known if they are red carriers or not and if not a real red Hereford would be more of a hybrid vigor benefit. We are currently using a bull out of an Angus bull and a F1 black baldy cow on a group of mostly Hereford and red crossbred cows. For our black cows it's hard to beat a good growthy red Hereford in my opinion.

They bred some of those Brangus to Hereford bulls last year, and had a few red baldy calves. Maybe 3 or 4, not sure but will find out. They most likely ( I will find that out, too) recorded birth and weaning weights for those, and will be able compare the Black Hereford sired calves' performance to those sired by Polled Hereford bulls last year. They have about 15-20 registered Hereford cows that they bred to one of their Brangus bulls last year, too. One or two of the red baldies may have come from that cross, I dunno. I always thought that Herefords made great mommas, myself. These Black Herefords have the same traits as the red ones... docile, maternal instinct, etc..... but no pink eye.
 

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