vaccinations and aborting

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Maybe just venting here, but I have a beef to pick, so to speak.
We vaccinated our herd Saturday morning, all of 20 head of cows and bred heifers (the calves were vaccinated back in August when we did some branding and calfhood shots). Of those 20 head, 5 were due to calf in the next 60 days. We calve half our herd in the fall and half in the spring (for show calves for the kids). We vaccinated all cows with Cattlemaster Gold, a modified live vaccine that covers for IBR, BVD, RSP, Influenza. Our vet recommends it for pregnant cows and we have used it for the last 4 years without problems. The 5 cows/heifers that were still due also were vaccinated with Scour guard. All 30 head were wormed with oral Strongid Paste. The ones that were not branded were freeze branded. We did all 30 head in just under 2 and a half hours. Cattle moved slow and easy, all but two are halter broke so they are easy to work with. Anyway, on Monday morning ALL of the cows were under the cedars, drooling excessively and some open mouthed panting, hanging around the water (it is near the cedar trees). None of the cows grazed the entire day, which was a nice cool (around 74 or so) and breezy day. I called my vet, a bit concerned, and he said it was normal for them to run a low grade fever, to just keep an eye on them and let him know if they get worse or do not improve in a day or two. Tuesday they were back to normal, grazing and no signs of drooling. I check the cows twice a day for pending births, heats and just general health, and pasture status (for rotating). I did not check them this morning since I had to leave before dark, so when I got home at 4 I went on my daily walk through the pastures. I found an (approximate) 30 pound calf, fully enclosed in a sack, with cottledens and everything present, meaning the sac separated from the uterus prior to birth, or an abortion, under the cedar trees. Going through my mind who was still due, I walked through the cattle pretty carefully. I had to search several times, but finally decided which one had aborted; a two year old heifer that was due around November 2nd. We bought this heifer as a bred in the spring, but our vet ultrasounded her and we determined the pregnancy at that time was 70 days. So we are pretty sure about her due date (she was bred to Monticito, a new Simmental bull), but the calf was pretty small for being due in 8 to 10 days. She has no udder developed (the reason she had not been pulled up to the house, she did not look close), and we figured we had time yet. So, I guess my question is, did the vaccines cause her to abort? I called my vet, but he was on a farm call and will not get back to me until tomorrow. I have money invested in this heifer, and now nothing to show for it. If the vaccines caused the abortion, which I would bet they did, then I am mad as a hatter because the label on the vaccine is proven for bred cows and heifers.
Anyone have any experience with this?

 

[Anonymous]

Coincidence is my bet.

 

[highgrit]

Could be a combination with the wormer or scour guard. My neighbor will not worm a pregnant cow. He's had a few abort after worming. I hope this is the only one. Best of luck.

 

[Reloadem]

which version of cattlemaster did you use? It does make a difference.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

I think it was gold plus? I already threw away the box and bottles, but our vet sold us the vaccine, and I would hope he knows better!

 

[denvermartinfarms]

I agree that it was probably not anything you did but i have been wrong before.If you don't like your vets answer i know one in the area that over the phone could tell you if it could have been anything you gave her.

 

[jerry27150]

rfd just had a show about this. anyone using modified live virus for ibr will have around 20-25 % or more abort. they are not reccomending anyone to use it as it is a herpes virus & once it is in the cow it has the chance of recurring later on. changed their minds as they were claiming it was the way to go

 

[Reloadem]

Copied this from Cattlemaster Gold FP5 L5 label.

2. Primary Vaccination: Healthy cattle should receive an initial 2 doses 3 weeks apart. As an aid in preventing IBR-induced abortion and BVD persistently infected calves, administer a 5-mL dose at approximately 5 and 2 weeks prior to breeding. Calves vaccinated before the age of 6 months should be revaccinated after 6 months of age.

 

[WORANCH]

Maybe its because I'm old and set in my ways, but I don't use live virus vaccine on bred cattle .

Why take the chance ???

 

[sandyhill]

Really hate to hear about your heifer. Keep us posted as to what the vet says.

 

[Dave]

Not sure on Cattle master but on Bova sheild which I use. It says that it is safe for pregnant cows "if" they had been vaccinated with Bova sheild prior to being pregnant. Beings as this was a purchased heifer, do you know her vaccination history?

I don't like to take the risk so I only use modified life vaccine on cows when they are open between calving and breeding. And on calves after they are weaned.

 

[milkmaid]

Good point Dave. Cattlemaster is labeled for use in pregnant cows at any stage, any time, with any history. Bovishield requires proper vaccination prior to breeding to be safe during gestation.

Bring the calf and placenta to your vet and have a necropsy done- may or may not tell you for certain what caused her to abort, but it's better than speculating. Coincidence does not equal causation.

 

[Chris H]

I think 30 lbs is pretty small for being due in 7-10 days. Did it look mature? Did it look like it had just died? If it was dead for any length of time it would be starting to deteriorate. It may or may not be due to the vaccine, but due to the size of the calf I'm inclined to think something else was wrong.
FWIW, we only use killed vaccine, but know others who use the MLV.

 

[Workinonit Farm]

FireSweep, I'm sorry to hear this. For whatever the reason, its lousy that it happened. I second what milkmaid suggested and take the whole works in for a necropsy. You may find your answer there.

I hope the rest of them continue with their pregnancies without incident.

Let us know how it turns out.

Katherine

 

[cow pollinater]

It sucks and it's avoidable(i use killed vaccine on my bred cows), but think about how many you've saved from a solid vaccination program and it kind of softens the blow.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

OK, so here is an update. I called Pfizer this morning since my vet was not available, and they wanted the fetus/placenta. So I took the calf over to the vet so he could take tissue samples, and he gave me tubes to take home and pull blood on the heifer, which we did tonight. I feel good that both he and Pfizer want to get to the bottom of this, and did not just brush it under the rug. They are supposed to get back to me with results, so hopefully I can get some answers. Even if it was "just because".
Something of interest that I did not know, but some of you mentioned it here, is the history of her past vaccinations. The vet on the phone mentioned something about if she had not had the vaccine before they do not recommend it. Sounded like what you explained about the Bovashield. But the Pfizer vet reiterated that it has been proven to be safe to use on pregnant cows/heifers. He also asked me if I had the box still, which I did not because it was burned with the trash Saturday night. Our vet is going to see if they can trace the lot number from the order. Another lose end we are trying to tie.
I am guessing at the 30 pounds, but she was pretty small. I could pick her up with one hand, and can not do that with a 50 pound sack (I have to use two!). But we were guessing on her due date, since she was bull bred and ultrasounded about 70 days. So she could have been due a bit later. She was fully formed, with hair and everything, and looked like a small calf. She had not been dead long, her eyes were not sunken in and she was not stiff or rigid yet. The placenta was still wet in most spots (the wind was blowing yesterday), so I suspect she was born just hours before I found her and dead in utero no more than a day. Like I said, she looked like a calf does when they are born. I have seen lots of mummy embryos raising pigs, and she was mature and alive until just recently. The vet agreed.

Copied this from Cattlemaster Gold FP5 L5 label.

2. Primary Vaccination: Healthy cattle should receive an initial 2 doses 3 weeks apart. As an aid in preventing IBR-induced abortion and BVD persistently infected calves, administer a 5-mL dose at approximately 5 and 2 weeks prior to breeding. Calves vaccinated before the age of 6 months should be revaccinated after 6 months of age.

This is why we vaccinated now, because we start our embryo work the last week of November and need that 6 week leeway for better conceptions. However, our label said 2 ML's, so not sure why this is stating 5 ML. Plus, this was not our primary vaccine, but a booster. We have used this vaccine for at least 3 years now.
Like I said, I feel better that someone is looking into it. I am glad I did not dispose of the calf, and that my cattle are so easy going that I could pull this heifer up from the very back pasture, run her in the chute, and pull 5 tubes of blood without her hardly flinching! Oh, and she still has no milk. I tied getting some milk out of her and had to really work a nipple to get just a drop. I love working with easy going cattle!

 

[milkmaid]

Keep us updated. I'm certainly interested in hearing how this turns out. Thanks!

 

[Stocker Steve]

She has no udder developed (the reason she had not been pulled up to the house, she did not look close), and we figured we had time yet. So, I guess my question is, did the vaccines cause her to abort?

Stress causes cows to abort. Moldy feed, handling, meds, shipping, weather, ect... Some of these stresses are not real obvious to us and they can be additive. Purchased heifers and thin lactating cows are the highest risk in my experience.

I have used (not gold) Cattle Master and it does set them back for a day or two. I did not have any abort.

 

[ousoonerfan22]

Because of the drought was the heifer a little thin? The reason I ask you are close to us and we had a heifer calve in September and her calf would have been lucky to weigh 40 lbs and he's still small.The cows were a little thin after running out of grass this summer so some of the calves are small.Also some calved early this fall.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Because of the drought was the heifer a little thin? The reason I ask you are close to us and we had a heifer calve in September and her calf would have been lucky to weigh 40 lbs and he's still small.The cows were a little thin after running out of grass this summer so some of the calves are small.Also some calved early this fall.

No, we fed hay over the summer, and have had some great grass since September (we are sill on grass and have at least 6 more weeks of grass left, but we MIG so cattle are moved once a week to a different section of pasture). She is at least a BC of 6, so not thin by any means, but not fat. I have heard of a lot of people around here calving early, but NONE of our calves so far have been early. Even our twins went full term, which was a surprise!