Vaccinate ?
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TexasBred
Well-known member
If a contagious disease hits your herd you should save about half of them.djinwa":3aj0kuru said:
Am I wrong or are most vaccines a reaction to an epidemic that has already occured. For example foot & mouth in UK. Not to say they could not happen again. No vaccine today can stop an outbreak of something new. I don't vaccinate because I haven't had a problem. When I do I would probably do something different. I don't live in fear like some of these folks.
No more than it costs to vaccinate I will continue to do so. Cattle are an investment, if I can keep something from happening I will. A rancher down the road from me lost 7 calves in one day from Blackleg, he didn't vaccinate. It would have cost him 3-400 to vaccinate. All the calves were in the 650 range and a week from sale day. @ 1.20/lb that is a loss of $5400 that could have been avoided. For me it is no different than insurance on my home, if I was to wait till it burned to the ground to get insurance it is too late. However I refuse to be close minded and think that the way I do things is the only way, it is just my way. If we all did things the exact same way this would be a boring profitless business.AllForage":2xvi1f3m said:
TexasBred
Well-known member
The creation of and use of a vaccine is always a reaction to a "new" epidemic of some kind in both animals and people. As long as germs are around and people don't vaccinate there is always the possibility of a new outbreak of an old disease. The non vaccinators is one reason that every country is not bruscellosis free. Some just always think they can beat the odds and many do....for a while.AllForage":2oeprtaa said:
andybob
Well-known member
When running native cattle in Africa, we vaccinated against anthra,blackleg and brucelosis, the local insect bourne diseases such as anaplasmosis, babesiasis and heartwater wre not vaccinated against as the native cattle had natural resistance developed over thousands of years, as we also supplied bulls to native reserves, a highly developed immune system was essential. We rotated the cattle regularly so did not need to dose for worms, ranchers who used improved, irrigated pastures did have to de-worm as they rotated too quickly to break the cycle of infestation. Exotic breeds in our area had to be vaccinated against all the prevailing diseases as they lack the native cattle immunity.
TexasBred
Well-known member
No fear mungering here. Just a realist....Ever seen a herd of cattle quaranteened genius and disposed of? I have. Happens more often than you think because people like you don't vaccinate. Bruscellosis, tuburculosis, etc. .... A guy can lose the family farm overnight and it can be prevented. Cattle don't live in a sterile environment.AllForage":7yola9ij said:
Double R Ranch
Well-known member
I have many differant opinions and feelings about this topic. I will not put anyone down, nor look down on anyone either way they choose to run their own herds. It is your own herd and you can do what you like. That is the nice thing about being a free country ;-)
I personally vac. everything. Every species of animal. I to have had all my vac. ;-)
I know quite a few guys both large and small operations who don't vac. or worm their stock.
One man I know is just lazy. He has a couple hundred head of cattle. Has a lot of money but doesn't give it a second thought. This breeder I tried to help with his program and it ended up costing me a TON of money in the end.
We purchased and traded cattle from him (as some of you will remember from previous posts), a group of young heifers and a couple registered bred cows.
Not only did they end up having random diseases (which my "own" vac. cattle never got) but had sevear infestation of fluke worms which caused nutrition problems for them and their offspring but also couldn't keep weight on no matter how much we fed. Most of the typical discriptions for fluke worms we had. Our own cattle (when butchered) came up clean for fluke worms.
We no longer buy from operations that don't have a strict vac./worming protocal. We've been unfortunate enough to buy enough cattle from the auction (in the beggining of building our own herd) and from individual commercial breeders. Most of those animals we have sold back to butcher at the auction due to problems that most of which have been verified by vets to be vac. preventable.
Other people I know that don't vac. just don't understand it. They don't take the time to research it and or don't feel its worth the labor. They are also the ones that call me with health problems related to vac. preventable diseases.
I think if you have a closed herd it is a more likely thing you will be ok. But what about your neighbor who is close enough to your fences that buys feeders from all over and some of those animals have been to dozens of stock yards and been subjected to many diseases.
Our closest neighbor started with feeder cattle. Had hundreds of cattle going on and off his properties weekly. His son decided to start a cow calf operation. They did not believe in vac. the cattle as their turn around normally was so quick on the feeders that they never noticed a need for it. The first year for him wasn't so bad. The second year he started noticing strange problems. Even as little as pinkeye on his calves and cows yet ours on the other side of the fence had none. He started asking why and several years later he started vac. his cattle. After analizing the cost to profit ratio he has proven to his father and me for that matter that it is very profitable for them to vac. and worm his cattle. Even though we have been vac. and worming for years it was very interesting to see his larger numbers of data.
I think its important to weigh your option in any situation. Do research and don't take the word of the manufactures.
I get a HUGE increase in the sale of my calves. I provide detailed records, with lot numbers of each vac. and location given of vac. Im not talking ten cents per pound increase. Im talking atleast twenty cents a pound increase. I have a good reputation with the buyers at the sale yards as well. They know my cattle are healthy threw the feedlots. My brand is on all my cattle. I also don't hide anything when selling my cattle. I openly state that a cow has come up open or had previous calving problems. It pays hands down atleast for us. Cattle we have sold with records and payed higher for are also tested at butcher and if anything shows up even as little as damage from a shot in a rump it is noted not to buy from us. Reputable feedlots are not that interested in paying higher prices for cattle that will arrive sick from a preventable disease. They pay more for 45+ day weanings because you don't have the decreased immune systems from the added stress.
We don't "feed" them any diffeant. We still graze them on pasture. So it doesn't cost us more to do so. It is very profitable.
This works for us but may not for you. We did for many years not vac. and worm but it became very costly very quickly.
Best of luck to you all. No matter which way you go.
Double R
I personally vac. everything. Every species of animal. I to have had all my vac. ;-)
I know quite a few guys both large and small operations who don't vac. or worm their stock.
One man I know is just lazy. He has a couple hundred head of cattle. Has a lot of money but doesn't give it a second thought. This breeder I tried to help with his program and it ended up costing me a TON of money in the end.
We purchased and traded cattle from him (as some of you will remember from previous posts), a group of young heifers and a couple registered bred cows.
Not only did they end up having random diseases (which my "own" vac. cattle never got) but had sevear infestation of fluke worms which caused nutrition problems for them and their offspring but also couldn't keep weight on no matter how much we fed. Most of the typical discriptions for fluke worms we had. Our own cattle (when butchered) came up clean for fluke worms.
We no longer buy from operations that don't have a strict vac./worming protocal. We've been unfortunate enough to buy enough cattle from the auction (in the beggining of building our own herd) and from individual commercial breeders. Most of those animals we have sold back to butcher at the auction due to problems that most of which have been verified by vets to be vac. preventable.
Other people I know that don't vac. just don't understand it. They don't take the time to research it and or don't feel its worth the labor. They are also the ones that call me with health problems related to vac. preventable diseases.
I think if you have a closed herd it is a more likely thing you will be ok. But what about your neighbor who is close enough to your fences that buys feeders from all over and some of those animals have been to dozens of stock yards and been subjected to many diseases.
Our closest neighbor started with feeder cattle. Had hundreds of cattle going on and off his properties weekly. His son decided to start a cow calf operation. They did not believe in vac. the cattle as their turn around normally was so quick on the feeders that they never noticed a need for it. The first year for him wasn't so bad. The second year he started noticing strange problems. Even as little as pinkeye on his calves and cows yet ours on the other side of the fence had none. He started asking why and several years later he started vac. his cattle. After analizing the cost to profit ratio he has proven to his father and me for that matter that it is very profitable for them to vac. and worm his cattle. Even though we have been vac. and worming for years it was very interesting to see his larger numbers of data.
I think its important to weigh your option in any situation. Do research and don't take the word of the manufactures.
I get a HUGE increase in the sale of my calves. I provide detailed records, with lot numbers of each vac. and location given of vac. Im not talking ten cents per pound increase. Im talking atleast twenty cents a pound increase. I have a good reputation with the buyers at the sale yards as well. They know my cattle are healthy threw the feedlots. My brand is on all my cattle. I also don't hide anything when selling my cattle. I openly state that a cow has come up open or had previous calving problems. It pays hands down atleast for us. Cattle we have sold with records and payed higher for are also tested at butcher and if anything shows up even as little as damage from a shot in a rump it is noted not to buy from us. Reputable feedlots are not that interested in paying higher prices for cattle that will arrive sick from a preventable disease. They pay more for 45+ day weanings because you don't have the decreased immune systems from the added stress.
We don't "feed" them any diffeant. We still graze them on pasture. So it doesn't cost us more to do so. It is very profitable.
This works for us but may not for you. We did for many years not vac. and worm but it became very costly very quickly.
Best of luck to you all. No matter which way you go.
Double R
vclavin
Well-known member
Guns only have 2 enemies. Rust and Polititions
Double R Ranch
Rancher
You forgot Lawyers so that makes 3 enemies!
Double R Ranch
Rancher
You forgot Lawyers so that makes 3 enemies!
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
Been down the bangs road, thats a very bad road. When the state first started testing. Whole herd quaranteened State Vet would come out and test every sixty days seemed one would always fail, then he would brand a B on the jaw and it had to go to slaughter. Run one through the salebarn with a B branded on the jaw see what that brings you.
redcowsrule33
Well-known member
Vaccinations are like an insurance policy, a protection on your investment. This insurance policy will not cover 100%. If you feel your risk is small enough to not require insurance, you don't buy the policy. However you must accept that there is a risk. And no one will be there to bail you out if you bring in something like BVD besides your checkbook. Pay now or pay later.
OP
OP
cypressfarms
Well-known member
Yes, this is a great country in that everyone is free to do what they want.
I'm waiting for someone who doesn't vaccinate or worm to show some type of evidence to the benefit of not vacc/worming. You never know what you can learn; but until I see proof of some sort, I'll keep vaccinating and worming. Worming especially. Down south here not worming is a recipe for disaster; but again I don't necessarily know what works for other parts of the country.
To each his own ofcourse; I hope the 60% of us that have no vaccination program don't dilute the quality of American beef. It only takes one case of mad cow disease, or any other such outbreak, to affect everyone's prices - today's market is definitely a global one. Who would have thought 50 years ago what Japan and Korea did would have any impact on U.S. beef prices?
I'm waiting for someone who doesn't vaccinate or worm to show some type of evidence to the benefit of not vacc/worming. You never know what you can learn; but until I see proof of some sort, I'll keep vaccinating and worming. Worming especially. Down south here not worming is a recipe for disaster; but again I don't necessarily know what works for other parts of the country.
To each his own ofcourse; I hope the 60% of us that have no vaccination program don't dilute the quality of American beef. It only takes one case of mad cow disease, or any other such outbreak, to affect everyone's prices - today's market is definitely a global one. Who would have thought 50 years ago what Japan and Korea did would have any impact on U.S. beef prices?
Double R Ranch
Well-known member
vclavin":inzxl3of said:
Good point.
Double R
djinwa
Well-known member
One outbreak doesn't necessarily justify everyone vaccinating for everything forever.
When doing an analysis, you can't just pick out one rancher that had a problem and ignore the others. You need to count all the ranchers that don't vaccinate and see how many losses they had. Nobody notices the nonvaccinators without problems - that's not very dramatic.
Say that ten ranchers spend $400 a year for 30 years for vaccination. That's $12,000.
Say that ten ranchers don't vaccinate and in 30 years, they have one outbreak that costs $6,000.
Which is the better deal?
You might say you need to treat cattle well and that includes vaccinations. But it isn't that great for them to run through the chute and be stuck with needles. That stress is also a problem and lowers immunity, possibly causing sickness, and can even make vaccinating ineffective. My impression is most like to focus on sticking cattle with something instead of protecting or boosting immunity and managing in a way that reduces exposure.
I'm not saying vaccination isn't necessary, but the logic used to justify it is sometimes deficient.
Casino gamblers I know don't count the times they lose money – they only remember the times they win. One needs to count all the data. Otherwise you're just finding a way to justify your predetermined preference.
djinwa
Well-known member
I would be interested to know specifically what those diseases were.
Doesn't seem like you'd want to sell or butcher an animal suffering from an infectious disease.
One example I gave is not my only reason for the way I do things. It is just that, one example. I have many. Some dating back to my family losing everything. And I mean everything in the early 1900s when as many as 1000 head of cattle had to be herded into pits, shot then covered up. Now I don't have a dog in this fight because it makes me no difference what you do. And like I stated at the end of the post you quoted. The way I do things is MY WAY and not nessecarily the way everyone should operate. I do not believe, and refuse to believe, there is just one way.
TexasBred
Well-known member
All the BS about the pros and cons of having a vaccination program and I'd be willing to bet that 95% of the dog owners on here have their dog vaccinated again rabies even tho there may not have been a rabies case in the county in 25 years. I can never justify skimping on vaccinating for something that could wipe me and every neighbor within miles completely out. The most expensive part of the whole program is my time and I'll gladly donate that.
djinwa":2hryz830 said:
How frequently do you encounter outbreaks that only cost $6K?
How frequently do you have 10 ranchers in close proximity that only have 1 instance of clinical or subclinical disease in 30 years?
