Utility of Rifle Calibres

[Running Arrow Bill]

Curious (and naive) and interested in other's opinions about some rifle calibres.

There seems to be a lot of advertising (and perhaps interest) in calibres of .17, .22, .223, 22-250, .243, etc that are High Velocity (over 2500 fps) rounds with Small bullets (usually under 75 grains).

As such, I "assume" that those high velocity rounds have a very flat trajectory, can travel a longer distance, and less likely to be affected by wind factors. But, with such small weight projectiles, how effective are they in stopping anything larger than say 50 lb. animal? Assumes, of course, a vital organ (head or heart) is hit.

Personally, I'd think one would need at least a 100 grain projectile (or 125 to 150 grain) to ensure a kill of a coyote, wolf, or something else about that size.

Any comments?

 

[dun]

Curious (and naive) and interested in other's opinions about some rifle calibres.

There seems to be a lot of advertising (and perhaps interest) in calibres of .17, .22, .223, 22-250, .243, etc that are High Velocity (over 2500 fps) rounds with Small bullets (usually under 75 grains).

As such, I "assume" that those high velocity rounds have a very flat trajectory, can travel a longer distance, and less likely to be affected by wind factors. But, with such small weight projectiles, how effective are they in stopping anything larger than say 50 lb. animal? Assumes, of course, a vital organ (head or heart) is hit.

Personally, I'd think one would need at least a 100 grain projectile (or 125 to 150 grain) to ensure a kill of a coyote, wolf, or something else about that size.

Any comments?

A 17 or 22 rimfire isn't a real good choice for anytihgn bigger then a wookchuck. But there have been a lot of deer killed with a 22 longrifle.
In the cewnterfires, a 17 Remington is adequte for yotes out to a couple of hundred yards, a 17 hornet isn't. Too much depends on the bullet weight, velocity, bullet construction and bullet placement for wide generalitys.
For common rounds, the 223 is about the lowest that is practical for yotes except at really short ranges, a 50-55 grain bullet works wonders. 70-90 grain 22 caliber bullets are used on deer but for my tast they're a bit marginal, butthey're generally too heavy for coyotes.
A lot of the hype you hear when a new caliber hits the market is because the gun writers need to have something to write about to get paid

dun

 

[Dave]

Actually lighter bullets are more affected by the wind than a heavier bullet. When it comes to shooting critters it is generally better to have too much gun than not quite enough.
A 22-250 is the standard for a coyote rifle and work just fine. A wolf is considerably bigger than a coyote. I would want a 243 and up if I were shooting wolves.

 

[oscar p]

I sure do like the ruger 308, you can still reach out there and touch someone, or in this case something.

 

[kjones]

I dont have a large selection of rifles handy, so I usually just grab my hunting rifle. 300 winchester magnum. If I hit pretty much any varmit, it will die. I know thats overkill, but you use what you got.

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

Guess I still have couple unanswered questions...

What is the advantage of high velocity (e.g., 2500+ fps) over low velocity round (if any)?

At say 150 yards or less, which would do more damage: (a) high velocity small weight projectile; or (b) lower velocity heavier projectile?

My "guess" would be to opt for the heavier projectile that was in the 1000 to 1500 fps range.

Obviously, all of the mfg data, etc., with velocities, projectile weight is confusing and/or designed to "sell" their brand/type of cartridge.

 

[kjones]

A heavier bullet will have better energy retention at the end of its flight. A slower bullet will be affected by gravity more. At a distance of 150 yards or less, I dont think you would gain anything by using a high velocity round. Even a slower bullet will get there plenty quick. A gun store owner friend told me his .17 drops off dramatically after 150 yards or so. So I would try something bigger. You could get all scientific, and look into different bullet designs, like their core design, coefficient of friction and such, but under 150 any proven design should be adequate.

 

[dun]

Guess I still have couple unanswered questions...

What is the advantage of high velocity (e.g., 2500+ fps) over low velocity round (if any)?

At say 150 yards or less, which would do more damage: (a) high velocity small weight projectile; or (b) lower velocity heavier projectile?

My "guess" would be to opt for the heavier projectile that was in the 1000 to 1500 fps range.

Obviously, all of the mfg data, etc., with velocities, projectile weight is confusing and/or designed to "sell" their brand/type of cartridge.

Higher velocity gives you less flight time and less time for the wind to act on the bullet.
The calculations for energy favor velocity over weight, but there are myriad formulas for calculating different measurments of effectiveness.
The arguement of high velocity low weight vs low velocity heavy weight has been going on for years. The first really public arguments about it were between Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith. There will alwasy be those that have a preference for one over the other. Sometimes based on experience, sometimes logic, sometimes what the latest gunwriter guru expounds.
The old analogy of which would you rather be hit by, a ping pong ball at high velocity or a bowling ball at low velocty doesn;t really mean much since my preference would be for neither.

dun

 

[mtncows]

There are about as many opinions out there as you would guess. In general,higher velocity give flatter trajectory and,I would think less chance for wind drift although, as has been mentioned,heavier bullets suffer less from wind.The debate over big/slow vs. small/fast is as old as smokeless powder.The late writers Jack O'Conner and Elmer Keith wrote from opposite opinions for many years. For varmints at long range a otessmall/fast caliber works great as there is not much power needed to kill provided a good shot is made.With any shot bullet placement is more important than almost anything else.With apologies to 22/250 fans, for coyotes up to 350yards, get a .223 remington and use 50 grain ballistic tips.They will do the job( I've seen it) and ammo is cheap to practice with.For heavier game(deer) a .243 will do nicely out 250 or300 with premium bullets.Check Graybeard outdoors.com for more info.I know nothing about wolves.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Many think the 243 is a perfect deer rifle. Why kill a deer with something that is going to tear apart half the meat? Why do you think a 243 would not kill a coyote? You don't need to hit these small animals with a Mack Truck.

 

[dun]

Many think the 243 is a perfect deer rifle. Why kill a deer with something that is going to tear apart half the meat? Why do you think a 243 would not kill a coyote? You don't need to hit these small animals with a Mack Truck.

It all has to do with matching what you're shooting with what you need to be effective. For many years I shot everything from cottontails to bear with a .308. May not have been optimum but it sure did the job. A .243 would be a little light for some of th really big deer, but for most, if you put a properly constructed bullet in the right place it does just fine. The same with coyotes and a .223. The Swift and 22-250 will give you a little more reach and you can you heavier bullets at the same velocity as the 223. Depends on what's needed. A 22 hornet for whistlepigs at 50 yards is one thing, but a jackrabbit at 250 is a bit out of it's class.

dun

 

[HOSS]

Many think the 243 is a perfect deer rifle. Why kill a deer with something that is going to tear apart half the meat? Why do you think a 243 would not kill a coyote? You don't need to hit these small animals with a Mack Truck.

It all has to do with matching what you're shooting with what you need to be effective. For many years I shot everything from cottontails to bear with a .308. May not have been optimum but it sure did the job. A .243 would be a little light for some of th really big deer, but for most, if you put a properly constructed bullet in the right place it does just fine. The same with coyotes and a .223. The Swift and 22-250 will give you a little more reach and you can you heavier bullets at the same velocity as the 223. Depends on what's needed. A 22 hornet for whistlepigs at 50 yards is one thing, but a jackrabbit at 250 is a bit out of it's class.

dun

The reason that there are so many calibers is because there are so many specialized needs and different styles / types of hunters. In reality a .243 can be used on ALL North American big game (with the exception of big bears and maybe moose as a general rule, but note that some of the inuits up north use a .223 for everything including moose and polar bears). I have taken deer, big boars, black bear and elk with my trusty 6mm Remington with one shot kills. it is the ballistic twin of the .243 round.

For BEST results ,however, match the caliber with the game and conditions that you will be experiencing. Coyotes in wood lots and brushy areas of the east a .22 mag or a 12 gauge shotgun may work just fine. So will a 22.250. Coyotes in the desert or plains or accross open pastures go with the 22-250, .223, .243 or any long range big game cartridge. Elk in dark timber a 45-70 works like a champ.....but so does a .300 mag or a 12 gauge slug. Elk in open country? The .300 mag is a better choice than the 45-70.

Personal preference also plays a factor. Some folks are great open sight shooters others are scope shooters. Some prefer lever actions and some are autos or bolt fans. It does not make any selection wrong if it fits the shooter. How boring would life be if we only had one or two calibers? More calibers = more guns I can justify owning

 

[BlackBaldyMan]

Words like "High Velocity" are appealing to the public eye on a box of shells :cboy:

 

[HOSS]

Words like "High Velocity" are appealing to the public eye on a box of shells :cboy:

Just like MAGNUM :lol:

 

[backhoeboogie]

Good discussion. I've got a 20 pound sledge, but I wouldn't use it to drive nails when I have a perfectly good framing hammer. My guns are no different than my tools.

I'd like a 300 Weatherby Mag, but I have never bought one. Just one of those things I'd like to have some day. My 30-06 is plenty big for most any big game I've gone after.

 

[mtncows]

BHB,you could if you could grt your wife to hold the nail!!!Seriously alot has to do with ability and shot placement.I heard a story about an Ala. poacher who used .22 rimfire withg shorts and shot for the ear canal.It has something to do with your own confidence in a caliber and what your friends use ,tooWhat ever your choice,practice until you are good at putting the bullet where it needs to go.

 

[milesvb]

Somebody must have forgot to tell those four does I put in the freezer last year that a .223 is too light for a deer rifle. ;-)

 

[MikeC]

kjones wrote:A slower bullet will be affected by gravity more.

Remember the Law of Gravity? Everything falls at the same speed. 32 ft. per sec. squared

The reason a small bullet might not be as effective as a larger one at extreme distances is because of the lack of momentum in which 'Wind Drag" effects the smaller, lighter one slowing it faster.

Bullet drop is an element of time only. The longer it takes for it to get to the point of impact, the more it will drop. No matter the size.

"Ballistic coefficient" is the measure of how a bullet slows in regard to wind drag. A longer more slender bullet with the proper ogive will tend to maintain it's velocity better.

There is no one caliber that is best for all situations. That is why the military uses the BMG 50 Cal and the .223 also.

"P. O. Ackley" is the man to read about using different velocities at different game and the effects thereof. In his second book, they shot well over a thousand pigs and goats to assess the killing properties of different bullets and velocities.

"Hydraulic Shock" was found to be very effective.

Personally I have the "NEED FOR SPEED" . :lol:

Dave wrote: Actually lighter bullets are more affected by the wind than a heavier bullet.

The lighter bullet being affected by "Wind Drag", yes.

On being blown off trajectory no. A side wind will affect both the lighter bullet and the heavier bullet the same.

 

[D.R. Cattle]

Good discussion. I've got a 20 pound sledge, but I wouldn't use it to drive nails when I have a perfectly good framing hammer. My guns are no different than my tools.

I'd like a 300 Weatherby Mag, but I have never bought one. Just one of those things I'd like to have some day. My 30-06 is plenty big for most any big game I've gone after.

I've got a 300 WBY MAG. Way up there on the food chain. Helluva beanfield rifle. Kicks like a mule and rounds very expensive.

 

[Caustic Burno]

BHB,you could if you could grt your wife to hold the nail!!!Seriously alot has to do with ability and shot placement.I heard a story about an Ala. poacher who used .22 rimfire withg shorts and shot for the ear canal.It has something to do with your own confidence in a caliber and what your friends use ,tooWhat ever your choice,practice until you are good at putting the bullet where it needs to go.

Best advice here find a round you are comfortable with and stick with it.
Always liked the 45-70 in this thicket you don't have to look for game after you shoot it.