Update on the Kudzu- Corriente herd since we sold it.

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Stonewall Joe said:
I think baling that stuff would be pretty tough
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First challenge would be to find a machine that will mow it without getting tangled and plugged. Might be hard to rake also. Vines about 20' plus long with lots of obstacles underneath. Probably plant some wisteria with it and might not even need twine or wrap on it. It would probably tie itself.

Anyone ever seen a load of kudzu bales?
 
There is, or hell with the years and times maybe was, a couple in NC or SC that did kudzu hay. I think from what I gathered that they ground planted it and then harvested at a certain length. I've posted the article on here before but would be more than glad to try again to gather it.
 
Warren Allison said:
That's what this place was, cut-over timber that has grown up over the years. When we first got it years ago, we would plant food plots here and there..and the dove field in it for years. The key, believe it or not, is it is almost half Kudzu. Most people probably don't know it, but Kudzu leaves test 24% to 26% protein. Roots and stems 16% or more. Hell, they sell Kudzu now at health food stores! And Corrriente thrive on weeds and briars and honeysuckle. Any grass on the place is Johnson grass and broom sage. with some volunteer wheat oats, rtc., from the dove field days. And Corriente don't need worming or fly control or any meds. We just turn them out and let them raise themselves. This summer I had those Plummer cows and my 2 1/2 Brahma heifers on it, and they did fine but it was just them and our 4 Corr heifers and the Corr bull on that 200+ acres. I doubt we could have put 120 of them, or any other kind, on that place without feeding them, though. The Corriente thing works best on land too poor or growed up for regular cattle. We never spent a dime on these other than some salt and minerals that we keep in the corral. And Corrientes don't have problems calving. I hear out west people even cross them with Charolais bulls. Me and Scott figured out we had about $20-$25K in the original 120 cow herd. Every year they would drop a calf that at 6 mos sold for more than you could buy their mommas for.. Often twice as much. We always used homozygous polled and black bulls and sold them at weaning....trailer weaned.. and they would bring what the other commercial Angus or black baldies 400-500 lbs brought. We would always turn enough bulls, usually 6, in with them at Easter and Memoerial Day weekend we'd pick them up and put in our Corr bull for cleanup. and get him out July 4th weekend. In this last crop they had all had black calves,( used 6 Ultrablack bulls) but some years we'd end up with anywhere from 4 to 8 or 10 Corr calves born in March. This is where we'd get our replacements, usually 1- 4 a year. And 1- 4 or so steers for fresh ropers.

If you have rough land you don't want to spend money improving and you do not want to spend time and money worming, vaccinating, etc, and don't want to be there everyday in calving season, and want to spend less than $500 a cow for your herd, then you can't make more money than you can with Corrs bred to Angus or Brangus bulls. After they all calved every February, we'd round them up and rope the calves, usually me, with Scott on the ground tagging and banding the bulls. And that was the extent of handling or working them til we rounded them up to load on a trailer to take to the sale.
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Warren, how do you think they'd do up north?
 
RDFF said:
Warren, how do you think they'd do up north?
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Shoot, I don't know, RDFF. When the cattle industry first moved to Wyoming, Montana, and other upper mid-west ad western states, it was with this kind of cattle out of Texas. Tyypically, bigger cattle do better than smaller cattle the further north you get. Left alone, mammals will evolve into bigger sizes in cooler climates, and smaller in hotter climates. Canadian. Michigan, Wisconsin etc. white tails tend to be 3 times the size of Florida white tails. Kodiak bears vs Mexican grizzlies, etc. What makes it work for us down here, is the warm, mild winters with forage still available, and the +-25% protein in the Kudzu. You'd have to feed them same as any other cattle in winter, though maybe not as much per head, so you wouldnt have the near-zero inputs we have. The purchase price would be lower, and you wouldn't have the wormer, vaccine etc costs. You could probably feed 2 maybe 3 for what it takes for 1 Char or Simm, but dunno how those calves would do. Down here, everyone trailer weans at 6 mos, and 450-500 lbs is the sweet spot. And when we take ours to the sale, they qare competing with angus and black baldy calves, and do just as well. At that age, they look like any other commercial angus is angus-beef cross calves. As they get older, not so much. If you didn't know, most would think they are an angus-dairy cross, and they sell like those crosses would. That's why I am experimenting with adding the Mexican Fighting Bull blood into our herd. Hoping it will result in a "beefier" looking calf. Then again, if you can feed 3 for what it costs to raise 1 Continental cow, and get three $500 calves instead of one $1k calf, You'd make 50% more money. Maybe get a couple and see?
 
simme said:
First challenge would be to find a machine that will mow it without getting tangled and plugged. Might be hard to rake also. Vines about 20' plus long with lots of obstacles underneath. Probably plant some wisteria with it and might not even need twine or wrap on it. It would probably tie itself.

Anyone ever seen a load of kudzu bales?
Click to expand...
The ones I have seen, were those small rolls that people used to make. About the size and weight of square bales. I think @Mountaintown Creek Ranch posted a link to someone in SC that was baling it.
 
Warren Allison said:
Shoot, I don't know, RDFF. When the cattle industry first moved to Wyoming, Montana, and other upper mid-west ad western states, it was with this kind of cattle out of Texas. Tyypically, bigger cattle do better than smaller cattle the further north you get. Left alone, mammals will evolve into bigger sizes in cooler climates, and smaller in hotter climates. Canadian. Michigan, Wisconsin etc. white tails tend to be 3 times the size of Florida white tails. Kodiak bears vs Mexican grizzlies, etc. What makes it work for us down here, is the warm, mild winters with forage still available, and the +-25% protein in the Kudzu. You'd have to feed them same as any other cattle in winter, though maybe not as much per head, so you wouldnt have the near-zero inputs we have. The purchase price would be lower, and you wouldn't have the wormer, vaccine etc costs. You could probably feed 2 maybe 3 for what it takes for 1 Char or Simm, but dunno how those calves would do. Down here, everyone trailer weans at 6 mos, and 450-500 lbs is the sweet spot. And when we take ours to the sale, they qare competing with angus and black baldy calves, and do just as well. At that age, they look like any other commercial angus is angus-beef cross calves. As they get older, not so much. If you didn't know, most would think they are an angus-dairy cross, and they sell like those crosses would. That's why I am experimenting with adding the Mexican Fighting Bull blood into our herd. Hoping it will result in a "beefier" looking calf. Then again, if you can feed 3 for what it costs to raise 1 Continental cow, and get three $500 calves instead of one $1k calf, You'd make 50% more money. Maybe get a couple and see?
Click to expand...
Yeah, my guess would be that without the "finish" that a full on beef gets coming into winter, they might survive, but would end up pretty thin come spring. I only feed hay/winter stockpile, critters never ever see a barn, and my dairy/beef crosses have a hard time with it. Slowly working my way out of them... first couple of winters I lost a few ner'do-wells, but this winter, which was considerably more difficult than the last few, I never had a single one get sick, or want to lay down on me. Natural selection... if they can't make it, they don't belong here. Haven't had any wormer or vaccinations on my herd either... just grass.... but it's not "waste land" like you're running on... mine is ALL converted row crop land... so right now it can command a pretty high rent value if I want to pursue it... even more so, because of the "regenerative practices" that I've been using now for almost 10 years.

I reckon I'll just stick with the nice round blacks........:) Thanks for the info though... always considering "angles"!
 
Warren Allison said:
The ones I have seen, were those small rolls that people used to make. About the size and weight of square bales. I think @Mountaintown Creek Ranch posted a link to someone in SC that was baling it.
Click to expand...
Me too at one point, happy to hunt it up again if need be. I love hunting up niche knowledge, since very niche research used to be part of my job.
 
Warren Allison said:
Down here, everyone trailer weans at 6 mos, and 450-500 lbs is the sweet spot. And when we take ours to the sale, they are competing with angus and black baldy calves, and do just as well. At that age, they look like any other commercial angus is angus-beef cross calves. As they get older, not so much. If you didn't know, most would think they are an angus-dairy cross, and they sell like those crosses would.
Click to expand...
So, nobody eventually catches on to the critters coming from your place, that they're not "angus-beef cross calves"... cause they don't do so well once they get older? Around here, the buyers would pick up on that real quick... guy that brings in "less desirable critters"... the word spreads pretty quickly. The auctioneer will announce whose herd they came out of... buyers pretty much know who to steer away from pretty quickly.

Maybe because you don't have to deal with the harsh winters, it's not as big a deal? We need critters here that can maintain some flesh through the cold... and that takes some fat on their backs to burn at that time. By spring, even the full angus cows can be getting "thinnish" on just hay/stockpile.... but once the weather warms up and the grass comes in, they swell right up again. Trick is to NOT calve until after that new grass comes in. I don't start until mid-May through June.

That doesn't fit with the "commercial beef scenario" that most seem to want to follow though... they will start calving in January, keeping the cows on a smaller outlot (instead of just on the pasture) starting sometimes as early as mid-September (cause their pasture is all done... I usually can get into December before feeding anything), dropping calves in a deep bedded barn, then putting them out into the feedlot once the calf gets going... and then watch 'em and doctor all winter and through the mud, maybe lose a few, feed 'em all with a grind it up TMR all winter, usually silage bales along with some grain, etc., and then have to clean out the yard onto row crop ground before crop planting. But they do end up with some really big calves come fall, having gotten a 6 month jump on what mine would have.... at least, for those calves that survived!
 
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RDFF said:
Yeah, my guess would be that without the "finish" that a full on beef gets coming into winter, they might survive, but would end up pretty thin come spring. I only feed hay/winter stockpile, critters never ever see a barn, and my dairy/beef crosses have a hard time with it. Slowly working my way out of them... first couple of winters I lost a few ner'do-wells, but this winter, which was considerably more difficult than the last few, I never had a single one get sick, or want to lay down on me. Natural selection... if they can't make it, they don't belong here. Haven't had any wormer or vaccinations on my herd either... just grass.... but it's not "waste land" like you're running on... mine is ALL converted row crop land... so right now it can command a pretty high rent value if I want to pursue it... even more so, because of the "regenerative practices" that I've been using now for almost 10 years.

I reckon I'll just stick with the nice round blacks........:) Thanks for the info though... always considering "angles"!
Click to expand...
This is purely speculation, but the late 1870s and early to mid 1880s was when a lot of Texas herds went over the trail to MT, WY, etc and the winter of I believe 86 or 87 killed a lot of beeves up there, and I read somewhere that the crossbred stuff survived better. The only thing I would extrapolate from that is that the animals that died probably began life in TX or Mexico and ended up getting waylaid by such an extreme winter while the European and euro crossbred cattle were from a more similar environment and probably also had a higher natural percentage of fat cut in. This speculation has little to do with anything other than a study of the history of the time and the fact that a member of one of the hereford (I like studying breed history) foundations mentioned it in a podcast as one of the jumpstarts for hereford popularity on the northern range.
 
simme said:
First challenge would be to find a machine that will mow it without getting tangled and plugged. Might be hard to rake also. Vines about 20' plus long with lots of obstacles underneath. Probably plant some wisteria with it and might not even need twine or wrap on it. It would probably tie itself.

Anyone ever seen a load of kudzu bales?
Click to expand...
never seen anyone bale it, nor met anyone that would want to see it..
 
RDFF said:
So, nobody eventually catches on to the critters coming from your place, that they're not "angus-beef cross calves"... cause they don't do so well once they get older? Around here, the buyers would pick up on that real quick... guy that brings in "less desirable critters"... the word spreads pretty quickly. The auctioneer will announce whose herd they came out of... buyers pretty much know who to steer away from pretty quickly.

Maybe because you don't have to deal with the harsh winters, it's not as big a deal? We need critters here that can maintain some flesh through the cold... and that takes some fat on their backs to burn at that time. By spring, even the full angus cows can be getting "thinnish" on just hay/stockpile.... but once the weather warms up and the grass comes in, they swell right up again. Trick is to NOT calve until after that new grass comes in. I don't start until mid-May through June.
Click to expand...
There are no buyers per se like there is in the west and mid-west. The buyers are the other ranchers, and a few may buy some to condition and send to a feed lot. Some will buy a calf or 2 that size,, to kill or re-sale in the fall. It would take months for enough similar calves to come through the sale to get up a "pot load". Everyone calves year round, and take what is 6 mos old to the sale when they reach it. No way for anyone to know who brought what calves in anyway, unless they were back there when you brought the calves in that morning or Friday night. The calves will be sorted and run through with any other calves that size color and sex. When head cows sell, then yeah, the owners stand up and tell about them, etc, but weigh calves are in and out of the ring in 3-4 seconds. They wouldn't stop the sale for you to tell them who you are and what these calves are even if you wanted to. I have no idea how they turn out after they are sold, unless a neighbor buys some.
 
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RDFF said:
Yeah, my guess would be that without the "finish" that a full on beef gets coming into winter, they might survive, but would end up pretty thin come spring. I only feed hay/winter stockpile, critters never ever see a barn, and my dairy/beef crosses have a hard time with it. Slowly working my way out of them... first couple of winters I lost a few ner'do-wells, but this winter, which was considerably more difficult than the last few, I never had a single one get sick, or want to lay down on me. Natural selection... if they can't make it, they don't belong here. Haven't had any wormer or vaccinations on my herd either... just grass.... but it's not "waste land" like you're running on... mine is ALL converted row crop land... so right now it can command a pretty high rent value if I want to pursue it... even more so, because of the "regenerative practices" that I've been using now for almost 10 years.

I reckon I'll just stick with the nice round blacks........:) Thanks for the info though... always considering "angles"!
Click to expand...
I think they wouldn't do any better for you than the dairy crosses, if even that good. But, like you said, no harm in researching other angles.
 
50/50Farms said:
This is purely speculation, but the late 1870s and early to mid 1880s was when a lot of Texas herds went over the trail to MT, WY, etc and the winter of I believe 86 or 87 killed a lot of beeves up there, and I read somewhere that the crossbred stuff survived better. The only thing I would extrapolate from that is that the animals that died probably began life in TX or Mexico and ended up getting waylaid by such an extreme winter while the European and euro crossbred cattle were from a more similar environment and probably also had a higher natural percentage of fat cut in. This speculation has little to do with anything other than a study of the history of the time and the fact that a member of one of the hereford (I like studying breed history) foundations mentioned it in a podcast as one of the jumpstarts for hereford popularity on the northern range.
Click to expand...
I think you are right on with this.
 
The other extrapolation that one could make is that the animals that survived that we're purely of southern strain probably were ones born up that way. There are a few prominent LH and corriente breeders in the snowy places, so I can only assume that with time they are capable of adapting. The Yoke S is one of the more famous ones, and I know for a fact that Iowa sucks.
 
50/50Farms said:
What order buyers there are down here that aren't travelling often aren't true order buyers but dudes who put together loads on contract and carry the middle.
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Yep. Most of the sale barn owners here, will buy up calves and condition them for a while, until they have a trailer load ready to ship west. They all go to each other's sales and buy, too.
 

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