chevytaHOE5674
Well-known member
Yeah cows aren't going to touch big hardwood stumps until they are so rotten that my size 12 boot can kick them to pieces (usually about 20 years after harvest).
Trees to pasture...any advice
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Mark Reynolds
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I'll add to that you would like to establish the WSG probably as soon as possible. The WSG, for the most part, require a very high percentage of sunlight/direct sunlight per day. You aren't going to get that for years. Until you have run cattle at densities to compact the soil, suffocate the roots, and kill the trees. And then the grasses won't establish on the 'concrete' you have created. I'm certain this is not your plan.
I forgot to mention the runoff and erosion mess this would create.
I've done it twice.
Not a good experience here in the mountains. There is very limited pool of people that will do it up here in North Georgia and once they start it's very hard to get them to finish. Bringing somebody from far away isn't realistic because you can't afford the transportation costs for all of the equipment. At one point I can't remember how much diesel an hour we were burning between all the machines but it was a bunch.
12 acres produced $55,000 in wood revenue. Logged, raked, rocks removed, all the debris burned, planted with Rye & Kentucky fescue $8,000 an acre.
Not a good experience here in the mountains. There is very limited pool of people that will do it up here in North Georgia and once they start it's very hard to get them to finish. Bringing somebody from far away isn't realistic because you can't afford the transportation costs for all of the equipment. At one point I can't remember how much diesel an hour we were burning between all the machines but it was a bunch.
12 acres produced $55,000 in wood revenue. Logged, raked, rocks removed, all the debris burned, planted with Rye & Kentucky fescue $8,000 an acre.
Ebenezer
Well-known member
Not removing stumps and leveling the soil prior to planting sets you up in a southern state for no real way other than aerial spraying to control sweetgum sprouts, cedar trees, pines, briers... You may do fire but that is not something I want to take on. If you try to come back and mow or whatever after a few years, plan on increased equipment maintenance due to hitting stumps, dropping in holes... do whatever but the cost to prep to decent pastures, with clearing, plowing and leveling with fertility added and decent seeds will easy go $3000 an acre if it is all hired.
The other downside of the NWS mixed grasses is the lesser option to do winter annuals. So it ties up acres for only a 120 day use. Just saying. The other option is eastern gammagrass if you can supply fertility. It yields well into a drought, still needs protection from overgrazing but can do fairly well with overseeded annuals after a killing freeze.
The other downside of the NWS mixed grasses is the lesser option to do winter annuals. So it ties up acres for only a 120 day use. Just saying. The other option is eastern gammagrass if you can supply fertility. It yields well into a drought, still needs protection from overgrazing but can do fairly well with overseeded annuals after a killing freeze.
kenny thomas
Well-known member
I mean this in a good way, you posted all the weeds you have in another post and said you have nothing but a backpack sprayer. Trying to clear woodland, get it in grass, and keep it in grass will be impossible. Concentrate on the cleared areas you have for now.
Silver
Well-known member
It comes down to time vs money. If you have time and no budget you can turn it to pasture by burning, grazing, resting, repeat over several years.
No time but a good budget then mechanical means are a good alternative.
I've cleared and broke land, it's a lot of work and not cheap even when you own the equipment.
No time but a good budget then mechanical means are a good alternative.
I've cleared and broke land, it's a lot of work and not cheap even when you own the equipment.
Pineywoods230
Well-known member
Had 45 acres of hardwood flush cut October of 2021. Took $1/ton off the price they paid me for the timber company to pile all the tops and debris into burn piles while they harvested the timber.
$5000 for a trackhoe to come out to help burn and bury whatever wouldn't burn.
$6000 in lime
$1200 in rye seed for root structure the first winter
$5000 in a skid steer with a brush cutter to shred the place the first time busting up any large cut off pieces that were left laying the next fall.
$1800 in patriot/tordon herbicide application by helicopter year 2
Allowed my hay fields to go to seed the last 2-3 years before cutting allowing the seed to spread for me. Got decent native grass now but still thick with green briar. No killing that stuff really. Price of timber covered all of that so far.
Alternative route was have the trackhoe push up all the trees then bring in the timber company to remove stumps and tops before hauling off and a dozer to regrade where standing timber was. That was a lot more money up front I didn't want to spend but I've been happy with how I did it.
$5000 for a trackhoe to come out to help burn and bury whatever wouldn't burn.
$6000 in lime
$1200 in rye seed for root structure the first winter
$5000 in a skid steer with a brush cutter to shred the place the first time busting up any large cut off pieces that were left laying the next fall.
$1800 in patriot/tordon herbicide application by helicopter year 2
Allowed my hay fields to go to seed the last 2-3 years before cutting allowing the seed to spread for me. Got decent native grass now but still thick with green briar. No killing that stuff really. Price of timber covered all of that so far.
Alternative route was have the trackhoe push up all the trees then bring in the timber company to remove stumps and tops before hauling off and a dozer to regrade where standing timber was. That was a lot more money up front I didn't want to spend but I've been happy with how I did it.
chevytaHOE5674
Well-known member
Who did the stump removal? Or just pasture so graze around the stumps?
chaded
Well-known member
Here if you tried that you would be battling invasives until you finally just give up.
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wobbie1775
Well-known member
I appreciate your detailed eye lol. Just because I am cheap doesn't mean I 'can't' afford to get equipment... I am just choosing that for now. I don't want to spend money on something I don't need or something that isn't "right". The only way this ground is going to pay me/pay for itself is through livestock (maybe timber sales?) and that isn't real easy in the triple canopy forest I have on most of the place. I understand I can rent ground (not likely close to me) or just buy pasture, but those aren't readily available options at the moment. Yes, I do need to improve the pastures I currently have, which I am looking for a tractor and brush hog now. But expansion is the desired end state. I have 17 sub-1000lb cows right now so maybe 12 A.U's and they are in great condition but the grass is getting beat up pretty hard. So I need to destock a bit, expand the grazing area, and improve the current pastures.
Once I hear from the forester and see what he thinks Ill keep you guys posted. I think its a valuable exercise to see what he thinks and then come up with a plan.
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wobbie1775
Well-known member
Nice level of detail on your response. I appreciate you giving that info.
Pineywoods230
Well-known member
Just pasture, stumps are still there but you have to look to even find them. You'd be surprised how much dirt covers over them
Travlr
Well-known member
In Missouri the trees will come back every year from seed so it will need to be mowed, and in a year the small trees will be large and thick enough that it will be hard on a bush hog. And then if you do beat your equipment up and still mow, the little stumps are tractor tire killers. Mowing around the large stumps is pretty hard. It's all trade offs, but I'd either push the trees down to get the stumps out or burn the stumps so the land could be mowed.
greybeard
Well-known member
I did it too. Logged 60 acres in 2007 or 2008, was running cows on it in 2009. I hired a neighbor with a log skidder to pile what the loggers left, then I burned it myself, re-piled it with a 45hp tractor and box blade and new landscape rake the burned the remains. A combination of hardwood and yellow pine. By the time I was done, the rake was junk but I got it done. Most stumps rotted out tho I did have some ground on about 15 acres that was closest to the house. $300/day but he guaranteed 100 stumps /day. Loggers tend to leave a mess for sure.
(I put the text in this for a different subject)
All told, it cost me a bunch of the logging $$ to get it all pushed up into piles. Bare ground turned to gum and Chinese Tallow sprouts and weeds pretty quick.
It was thick, with booth trees and underbrush so thick you couldn't walk thru most of it.
There lots of BIG piles to burn. In this Ariel photo, I had not yet cleared 17.5 acres in the upper left. Late 2008,maybe early 2009. My house was not yet completed on the far left.
My wife had just lit this one.. I think we lit off 6 that morning.
Them ol cows didn't have much to eat that winter, but they survived on sweetgum leaves off the sprouts and hay. Cows love sweetgum. You don't think so, cut down a gum tree in your pasture and they'll be all over it.
I poured the ryegrass and bahia seed to it even before last frost and it came alive that summer and I was off a runnin then.
You can do it on the cheap, IF, you got a little $$, a LOT of time, A VISION of what you want and stick to it and don't mind days and days of hard work. (I was 57 when I started that....couldn't do it today tho)
I'd probably still be there except my wife couldn't stand the humidity, the bugs and the fact that the place was kinda like a leaky boat. It tended to take on water at times......
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wbvs58
Well-known member
Around here you would be in hospital getting your size 12 foot fixed up after 20 years.
Ken
Lucky_P
Well-known member
When we bought this place in 1994, it had a couple of stands of 35 y.o. planted pines ~15 acres total, that had been decimated by an ice storm. Had some hardwoods and tulip poplar in the mix. Had it clearcut, and the husband of a coworker quoted me $2500 to clear it. I just about sh!t myself when he presented me a bill for $8400. I had to scrape to come up with it, but I paid it. But I've made sure to warn anyone else away from him; I love his wife, but I wouldn't p!ss down his throat if his guts were on fire.
Additionally, he pushed so much dirt up into the dozer piles that you couldn't burn them. Had to hire another guy to tear the piles apart, spread the dirt, and repile the logs for burning.
30 yrs later stump holes are still settling out.
Additionally, he pushed so much dirt up into the dozer piles that you couldn't burn them. Had to hire another guy to tear the piles apart, spread the dirt, and repile the logs for burning.
30 yrs later stump holes are still settling out.
I have one piece of advice...cut in October (helps to kill the tree roots) leave the stumps as is....2" to 6" high...it's pasture...most stumps will rot away on their own in 5 years, others-hardwoods 10 years.
You can even drop all the trees in a few weeks and leave them on the ground and work them slowly. Cattle will work most branches away. The name of the game is to bring sunlight in to the ground. Everyone loves nice clean pastures...but you can have that by letting nature clean up most of the fallen trees in 5 to 10 years. Hire a few 16 to 25 year olds to drop every single unmarked tree...depending how dense things are...you might make 3 to 5 acres a day with two or three chainsawers..in 20 days it's done. Labor for 3 young men $6,000. to $12,000. (well -paid too) versus $100,000. to clear 100 acres clean and fast. You can always get a dozer in after the cutting/dropping and push trees to the sides. I've always worked the land manually with minimal costs...i'm not a heavy equipment person....others pay 100k I'm going to pay 10k and let God and nature help me.
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wobbie1775
Well-known member
One thing that concerns me with pushing them over is the holes that are left. Making big old dents all over.
Twisted
Well-known member
Get you a tractor with a loader so you can pick rocks and make that your hobby. I have a rock pile as big as a house that I have picked up in the last year off of 15 acres that was cleared 4 years ago.
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wobbie1775
Well-known member
I was actually thinking today... Maybe I just cut back the forest a few yards at a time. So cut down the trees, buy machine to move the logs into a pile and just have a logger come get them when there is a truck load. Im not sure yet how it will play out but I appreciate your model for sure.
