training cattle dogs with aids, bb guns et al

[jvicars]

i need to train my border collie and catahoula to listen when on cattle. my catahoula needs to come off when told consistantly and border collie likes to chase the horses.

i have been told to use a bb gun when they do the wrong things. also someone said rat shoot. i dont know what rat shot is exactly.

i also tell them no but i am getting beyong frustrated. comments.

 

[ROCKSPRINGS]

Shock collar.

 

[Brute 23]

The problem is you don't have a handle on your dogs. They have not been TRAINED properly.

Go back to the basics of obiedience. Start in close quarters where you are in control of all the variables. Work on you commands and getting the dogs to look at you, respect you, and try to please you.

As they get every thing down when they are close start moving farther and farther away. If they start acting up with distance bring them back in close and reinforce every thing and start moving out again. A well TRAINED dog is good at 5' and 5 miles.

Shock collars are just, in some ways, kind of a quick cover up of the actual problem, that being no handle on the dogs. Good TRAINING, although it takes more time and effort, is far better in the end.

 

[Hippie Rancher]

if I recall they are probably too young and you took them right out and started letting them chase cows. go back and read those links I posted from Bud Williams.

 

[Dusty Britches]

I agree with Brute. I don't know how old your dogs are, but they have to have a handle on them before you work them on cattle or sheep or anything.

I disagree with a shock collar on the border collie. They are way to sensitive for that. It may work on the Cat, though.

Make sure your dogs aren't getting distracted and will consistently "down" every time you call it. Also, try the collie on a long lead around horses. When she goes after them, jerk the heck out of it and yell, NO! Here! She is very smart and it won't take long for her to figure out horses are not the thing to chase.

I also TOTALLY DISAGREE with BB guns and rat shot. Any idiot who suggested that is not worth listening to. They don't have a clue as to how to train cow dogs. Run, don't walk, to the nearest exit and never listen to that person on anything.

Read some books and call a professional trainer. Training cow dogs is alot easier than training hunting dogs, in my opinion.

 

[jvicars]

thanks for the comments. one of the cowboys i know here is known for his good cow dogs and they are a pleasure to watch work. he is the fellow that mentioned rat shot or bb gun. the 2 of the dogs are from shelters so i am working with there habbits. its a work in process and was asking to find out comments i have heard. thanks.

 

[Dusty Britches]

.... known for his good cow dogs and they are a pleasure to watch work. he is the fellow that mentioned rat shot or bb gun. ....

My neighbor trains his dogs like that. One day he got so mad at the 5 dogs, he shot and killed 4 of them. The next week, he had 4 more. They didn't last a year.

But, you follow the advice you are comfortable with. There are easier more effective ways to "train", in my opinion.

 

[jvicars]

i have not done anything yet and i dont want to hurt my dogs. they are here to work but i know they need training. i will try some of the suggestions here and i am working with them daily on discipline. thanks.

 

[Brute 23]

The question is how does he use the BB gun and rat shot?

There are lots of people who are horrible at training dogs but have really good dogs.

The guys I know, who sound just like your guy, go out and get dogs by the dozens. They take them out and if they make one mistake they get shot dead right on the spot.

What they have left are just naturally good dogs that the stumbled upon.

Had they know how to train the dogs the could have made a large majority of dogs the shot work and the good dogs that the do have could be excellent dogs.

Traning is knowing how to bring out a dogs abilities and manage them to your benefit.

 

[jvicars]

wow that is a tough method but i am sure he gets good dog but darwinism. if my dogs dont work i have a deal with the shelter i got them i will take them back. i would not killl a dog that was not good on cows since all of my dogs are real good dogs.

i do feel you cannot train a dog to be agreesive on cows. either they are interested or they are not. the training is to get them off, left, right, bring them back etc.

i have one young catahoula i got from the shelter, male, they is awesome except does not show an interest on cows. i have rack it up to he is young an training will not make him a better cow dog at this point.

my biggest issues are just getting them to come off consistantly. the idea behind ads such as bb gun is to get threir attention a few times when i say off. if they dont come off they get a slight sting.

nothing hard core just get their attention. thanks.

 

[Brute 23]

Use a bull whip...

When they are on a cow and you want them off you crack the whip and tell them "get out". It works good for breaking their attention so they will look at you.

When I have young pups and I am training them I use fire crackers some times. IF they are out side and I am calling them but they do not listen. I light a fire cracker and throw it in their directions. They come back then.

 

[jvicars]

i tried a bull whip. the problem is its tough to get close enough sometimes because my dogs get focused and i cannot get their attention all of the time. overall they are good dogs. i penned my cows up today with them. i just need to further train them and i heard various methods to really get their attention. i have heard rat shot most of the time. honestly i dont even know what rat shot is. bb gun in understand and i know it will just sting a bit.

 

[Brute 23]

Rat shot is a .22 bullet that instead of shooting one chunck of lead it shoots bbs simular to a shot gun. It usually requires a single shot or revolver to shoot them.

What do you mean you can't get close enough with the bull whip?

I meant to just make the pop noise to break their attention. :lol:

 

[Dusty Britches]

a bb gun will not just sting a bit. the pellet or ball will penetrate the skin and typically results in an infection.

rat shot may kill your dog.

You need to read some training books AND talk to a pro trainer. Inflicting pain is not training and sure won't make any dog excited about working cows.

To break the dog's attention you can also try putting pennies in a small medicine bottle or glass bottle and shake it to capture their attention.

Also, try using a rope and walking the dog through your commands. Do one command until he understands it. Do not try to use multiple dogs at the same time until they are all started on commands. Do all your training in pens, where you can control the cattle and dogs. Are your cattle dog broke?

The Cat will get his excitement from the BC, once you can control them. But, keep in mind, some Cats would rather hunt than work cows.

 

[jvicars]

well as a kid i was shot more than once with a bb gun with a few pumps. the ideas is not to hurt them but get their attention. i dont see this being different than a shock collar. i am not taking about a pellet gun but a pump bb gun. it gets their attention and is not fired to penatrate. a sting yes but we must be taking about different things.

 

[Dusty Britches]

Brute - Swilliams asked me to post this:

Brute, I found this thread by accident, following a link. None the less, you are right on as is usually the case on the hog doggin boards. Dog training is entirely to simple to over think the way that so many people do. #1 is to have a handle on your mutt. After that, you can achieve anything at any distance. I don't know if it is any different for cattlemen but I hear way to often from hogdoggers that too much handle will interfere with a dogs drive. HOG WASH! We need to get together one of these days for a hunt. I would bet that our packs would work together well.

Monteria

 

[Brute 23]

Thanks, I appreciate the kind words.

Spent lots of time training the wrong way before I was taught the right way. Just trying to pass it on and save others a little time so they can get to the good part.

Always down for a hunt... One of these days.

 

[TedH71]

To be honest, lots of catahoula folks use BB pellets to get their dogs to call off because simply it's the best way for them to teach their dogs because catahoulas are used often on very feral cattle and catahoula people value the hardheadness that the catahoula breed can possess. Many times, the dog is working the cattle so intensely that they simply can't hear the commands and need a physical reminder. Quite dangerous to walk up to a bunch of feral cattle trying to kill your dog and try to tell your dog to come off. Many times I think that the cattle aren't settled in yet and the dog keeps pushing the cattle..those dogs need a reminder to be more gentle then bb pellets might be a good choice IF you're a decent shot. I wonder if a vibrating collar might work better?

That is why I know of some catahoula people switching over to blue lacys because they are far less hard headed and listen quite readily plus you don't really have to emphasize that you're the alpha like you have to with catahoulas. I've had many catahoulas..only have had one blue lacy and am so impressed that I will more than likely always keep around a blue lacy or two. Catahoulas are good for hog hunting for the most part due to their hardheadness.

When hog hunters are talking about too much handle...what they really mean is that the dog prefers to stay close to the hunter than RANGE out and find. I sometimes wonder if that was true with some of my dogs. Not so with my blue lacy and my catahoula who is staying at a friend's place in Texas due to his extreme stubborness and refusal to leave my fiancee's deaf/blind dog alone.

Was told this by an old timer whose family has bred catahoulas for over 5 or 6 generations. They culled really hard and nobody does this culling that much anymore. I know of maybe 1 or 2 who still follow this method of culling. Breed a working female catahoula to a working male catahoula. Let the mother give birth. Cull any pups with excessive whites. Let the pups grow up. Do minimal training. When they're of age (not sure what age but I'm speculating less than a year old) take them to the woods and let them go and find cattle. Cull the ones that don't do anything. Next cull is when you cull the pups that call off easily. Cull the ones that quit working. Let the remaining pups work the cattle then take them home. It was rather easy to get from 18 pups (catahoulas can and often will throw large litters) to maybe 2 or 3 pups. Then you worked with the remaining pups to enhance their potential. He said back then in Louisiana, a dog had to really earn his keep or else the dog was put down immediately. His friends and relatives were hanging around and all of them nodded their heads and said they still did those methods...but some didn't because they didn't need that excessive hardheadness, etc.

 

[jvicars]

Culling weak ones is still done around here. I know a cowboy who has 13 dogs. He gives them until about 1 yr and then he culls the weak ones. I know its not popular but its his business and bad dogs can do more harm than good. he relies on his dogs for work. period. he takes them out on cattle. teaches them a few commands and then the weak ones go. i tend to want to give them as pets to folks but culling is still alive and well just like we do with cattle. we dont rebred crazy cows if they give you to much trouble.

 

[TedH71]

Culling can also mean neuter/spay before giving them away.