Top Dollar Angus

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jscunn

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I was gonna ask the same question that U4411clb asked. I got to thinking about it and most carcass cattle when I think of those kind of cattle do at least come from the fescue belt so they should slick off. I would like to know what the pedigree looked like, at sire and MGS..
 

jscunn

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Thanks for the article J+. Really nice read, honestly surprised the difference was that great. Amazing you can move that many to Prime in one generation. Having fed out a few Enhance cattle I should not have been surprised. They marble exceptionally well in relation to other current AI sires. The thing we all tend to forget is that we all get paid for what we hang on the rail. And yes I have bred and calved out Enhance daughters, no problems on fertility or structure, but they are still young.. Tonight I can share some pics of Enhances but there is a reason he was the highest selling semen sire (Angus) in the last 2 years..
Enhance sired bred heifer, safe in first service AI on timed breeding.


Now I admit this is certainly what Enhance does best..

and


A couple of other AI Sires
SS Niagara heifer


SS Niagara Steer
 

Brute 23

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The second bull I was talking about was diagnosed with congestive heart failure by the vet a couple days ago. He could barely hear a heart beat and the bull has a 106 fever. We owned the bull for 60 days and he only made 30 days in the pasture. Vet says he doubts the bull makes it but if he does to bail him as soon as we can.
 

Ebenezer

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If I am not wrong, a pound of fat takes more energy/nutrition to produce than a pound of muscle. Carcass driven cattle would be most challenged or would not do-all on basic forages if my first statement is correct? Have we morphed past the idea that fertility is 10X more economically important to a cow/calf operation than carcass and terminal traits? Is the major market for cattle increasing on the steaks or the burger side? Not being critical, but at what limit (pictures) will marbling and fat turn off folks via "a lot of fat for a lot of money" or health concerns? Personally, I'd rather have light marbling and less seam fat and buy more beef in a cut. But that is an opinion of one. I do understand the retained ownership angle and the freezer beef and direct sales side of things. The comments I go back on direct sales is that the families wanted smaller steaks and less fat. Seems that we think more is better but many want good food but with full usefulness.

For the fescue folks: we have to be the most careful on outside genetics - just part of it. Know it or learn it. Knowing is the cheaper route!
 

GoWyo

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Is there a link between pap scores and fescue/heat tolerance?
This would be interesting to know. Enhance has about the worst PAP EPD in the breed, but he is from fescue country. Never used him and never wanted to -- does he work well in fescue country?
 

BFE

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I assumed if there was a better pap score it would translate to better fescue tolerance. I could be all wrong though and there may not be any correlation at all.
 

jscunn

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so my understanding is pap is about heart health and fescue tolerance is about the endocrinological system.. so different systems. now good pap cattle should be better in the stress of a feedlot situation..

the fat vs muscle deal is outside fat not inside fat (marbling) once again my understanding from what i have read. i have a friend who "plays" with feeding steers out (800 a year). he said the best, most profitable steers are prime yg3.. any yield less than that you left cw on the table, any more than 3 means they were too fat (not efficient) in the last days of feeding..
 

BFE

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so my understanding is pap is about heart health and fescue tolerance is about the endocrinological system.. so different systems. now good pap cattle should be better in the stress of a feedlot situation..

the fat vs muscle deal is outside fat not inside fat (marbling) once again my understanding from what i have read. i have a friend who "plays" with feeding steers out (800 a year). he said the best, most profitable steers are prime yg3.. any yield less than that you left cw on the table, any more than 3 means they were too fat (not efficient) in the last days of feeding..
Ok thank you. Good info.
 

Son of Butch

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Small sample size, but 1 thing that jumped out at me...
carcass weight epd 51 lb expected difference
actual difference 37 lbs
27% short fall is very significant and carcass weight is an easy measurement
and should cast at least somewhat significant doubts on epd accuracies

Which leads me to believe Milk epds might be close to useless. Milk is low heritability and difficult to measure... but what else are you going to do?
 
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wbvs58

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The second bull I was talking about was diagnosed with congestive heart failure by the vet a couple days ago. He could barely hear a heart beat and the bull has a 106 fever. We owned the bull for 60 days and he only made 30 days in the pasture. Vet says he doubts the bull makes it but if he does to bail him as soon as we can.
It sounds like hardware disease, traumatic pericarditis. Puss in the pericardial sac from penetrating hardware would cause cardiac tamponade and signs of congestive heart failure. The heart sounds would be very muffled as well.
The question would be did it occur at your place or at the breeders place? Possible some hardware could have been there and the effect of travelling and handling, socialising with other bulls could have caused it to move and penetrate the diaphragm.

Ken
 

Ky hills

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It sounds like hardware disease, traumatic pericarditis. Puss in the pericardial sac from penetrating hardware would cause cardiac tamponade and signs of congestive heart failure. The heart sounds would be very muffled as well.
The question would be did it occur at your place or at the breeders place? Possible some hardware could have been there and the effect of travelling and handling, socialising with other bulls could have caused it to move and penetrate the diaphragm.

Ken
That is similar to a bull I purchased years ago. I had him for under 30 days, when it was noticed that he wasn’t doing well.
Had a vet out to look at him and it was diagnosed as pneumonia.
He treated him with an antibiotic, I don’t remember which one. Several days later he hadn’t improved and was worsening. Friends recommended another vet, he came out and said that it was hardware and that the other vet had only listened to the upper part of the heart if I remember correctly.
We contacted the breeder of the bull who is a longtime respected Angus breeder. In spite of him saying that he had just had a heifer with hardware, he refused to do any compensation of any kind for the bull. Never will do business with him again.
 

Nick Wagner

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I ran only registered Angus bulls for over 20 years, most were AI sired and a couple ET. Seemed like it was first one thing then another after a while and was having to replace bulls pretty often.
Tried to put together a small registered Angus cowherd too, and didn’t have much luck with that either,
Have also heard a couple registered breeders lamenting breed problems too.
I got tired of importing problems and started using my own bulls some 15 years ago. No regrets. However, we are concerned about getting the herd too inbred, so the boy is experimenting this year and bought semen for fifteen cows. Time will tell. One notable event, one summer had four cows drop dead. After the fourth one, in August, I told the boy everything has a genetic component, go pull papers on those cows. They were half sibs, 3 and 4 years old, out of a bull I had purchased. In hindsight, luckily we shipped him after he developed corns on both front feet, only used him parts of two seasons. We had five of his daughters in the herd starting out that year. This happened after we had started down the path of using our own bulls, he was the last bull I purchased, it sure reinforced the decision. Don’t beat up us Angus folks too hard, Dad had a herd of Herefords. Around 1980, I was pretty handy at stuffing a uterus back into a cow.
 

Ebenezer

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Small sample size, but 1 thing that jumped out at me...
carcass weight epd 51 lb expected difference
actual difference 37 lbs
27% short fall is very significant and carcass weight is an easy measurement
and should cast at least somewhat significant doubts on epd accuracies

Which leads me to believe Milk epds might be close to useless. Milk is low heritability and difficult to measure... but what else are you going to do?
I have doubts on MM EPD honing in on pure milk production but the definition of it is a catch-all so there is quite the reason to wonder. True high milk production is a terminal trait for more calf growth and less about the cow's maternal function on forages.
 

Ky hills

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I got tired of importing problems and started using my own bulls some 15 years ago. No regrets. However, we are concerned about getting the herd too inbred, so the boy is experimenting this year and bought semen for fifteen cows. Time will tell. One notable event, one summer had four cows drop dead. After the fourth one, in August, I told the boy everything has a genetic component, go pull papers on those cows. They were half sibs, 3 and 4 years old, out of a bull I had purchased. In hindsight, luckily we shipped him after he developed corns on both front feet, only used him parts of two seasons. We had five of his daughters in the herd starting out that year. This happened after we had started down the path of using our own bulls, he was the last bull I purchased, it sure reinforced the decision. Don’t beat up us Angus folks too hard, Dad had a herd of Herefords. Around 1980, I was pretty handy at stuffing a uterus back into a cow.
Yes, we have been using some of our own for a few years now.
Understand that I realize every breed has their problems and I’m not intending to villianize Angus breeders. I know quite a few Angus breeders that are fine folks, and several I would call friends. Only a couple that I have dealt with that I absolutely would never do business with again.
My point of contention is with the direction of the the breed and arguably most breeds in general, as others seem to follow the trends.
I honestly lay blame for a lot of it on the mentality that big well known prefix herds have superior cattle. The use of AI has furthered that myth and created a lot more problems than benefits, in my opinion. If a purebred breeder wants to bring in new blood then by all means AI is a good means to do that, if they know what they are bringing in. Just because a bull brings x amount at a sale doesn’t always equate to quality. Or just because it has a certain prefix in front of its name doesn’t necessarily make it superior to anything else. There is a sense in which breeders are just becoming multipliers and actually loosing sight of the importance of visually seeing and selecting animals in person and just taking someone else’s word for it.
Folks the seedstock business is about marketing. There is money to be made through marketing, and often it’s at the expense of others. Mr. Haney (Green Acres) was famous for saying “ Mr, Douglas, I have just what you need “
Many conversations when purchasing cattle start that way, and many people believe that because the animal/s have a big name pedigree and a big price that they are getting something great. In reality they may be, but there’s a pretty big chance it ain’t as good as is they initially thought.
I’ve had enough experiences with other breeds to know the same applies, it’s not just Angus. I believe the difference is that some breeds have worked in correcting some of the old stereotypes of their cattle, while new issues are happening presently due in large part to too much reliance on EPD’s and widespread use of AI just because of how it’s presented.
 

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