Too small or just right ?

[Stocker Steve]

Most folks agree that size matters, and there are some commercial cows that are just too big. In my area > 1500# cows would diffinently be considered "big", and 1300# cows would be considered average. A few folks brag about the calves that wean off small cows, but there is not much data out there for how small is too small ?

Any thoughts on this for a grazing based commercial cow/calf operation ?

 

[BRG]

Here is an article I wrote after researching this subject.

The 1400 lbs cow vs the 1100 lbs cow

There seems to be a huge push in the industry right now to make your cows small. We are told they are more efficient and you will make more money off a small cow because you can supposedly run 20% more cows on the same feed. We are also told a lighter weight calf will bring more per pound. Well that sounds real good. But let's dig into it a little deeper and make it an apple to apples comparison.

Let's start with the first argument. The industry tells us that you should be able to run 20% more cows on the same amount of feed when comparing an 1100 lbs cow to a 1400 lbs cow. So let's compare a ranch that can run 600 head of 1100 lbs cows compared to 500 head of 1400 lbs cows on the same feed resources.
After a 5% death loss, you should have 285 steers off of the 1100 lbs cow herd. If the calves weigh 44% of the cows weight, the average weaning weight will be 484 lbs with an average price of $190/cwt or $921/calf (by using the average price on Superior's Steam Boat Springs Sale). If you replace 15% of the cows a year, that comes to 90 cull cows that weigh 1100 lbs and sell for $.81 or $891 each. To replace those cows you will need to retain 105 heifers annually. Of the heifer calves you sell off the cow (after a 5% death loss) you will have 180 head that average $846 if they sell $10/cwt back from the steers. Of these replacement heifers in which you try to breed, you will cull 15%, or 16 head. If your cows mature out at 1100 lbs, then these heifers will be around 800 lbs. Taking the average Superior price of $135/cwt, they would be worth $1080 each. Now you will need 5 more bulls to breed these cows and heifers since you have more cattle (15 heifers and 100 cows), and I used our last year bull sale average of $4850 a bull. So after you add up all the income and expenses, the gross off of your 600 cows is $487,875

Now, let's figure the 500 head ranch full of 1400 lbs cows. After a 5% death loss you would have 237 steers that weaned off at 43% of the dams body weight, for an average weaning weight of 602 lbs with an average price of $172/cwt or $1035 per steer calf (by using the average price on Superior's Steam Boat Springs Sale). If you cull 15% of the cows, you will have 75 head of 1400 lbs cows to sell at the same price as the 1100 lbs cow of .81/cwt for a total of $1134/cow. You would need to retain 90 head of replacement heifers to replace the 15% of cull cows. So you would then sell 148 heifers to sell off the cow (after a 5% death loss) at $954 each, priced at $10/cwt back from the steer mates. If you have the same amount open as the other group, which is 15%, you would have 14 head to sell that will weigh 1000 lbs, and by using the average price for that weight on Superior, they would be worth $128/cwt or $1280 each. After adding everything up, the gross sales are $492,092.

So as you can see, it is actually the opposite of what they tell us. By these figures, the difference is over$4000 more made off the 1400 lbs cow. What isn't figured in yet is the extra calving facilities, labor you have at calving, pasture care, etc, plus the extra vet expenses you have to run the extra cows, or in this case, 100 head of cows and their calves and 19 replacement heifers. After you add that all up, it could cost you from $10,000 to $15,000 or more annually to have the smaller made cow. Plus, this type of smaller framed calf will not get the premium sale day just because he is lighter. The lighter calves that get the real premium are the second cuts of the medium framed cows, as the smaller framed calves will finish too small and have higher yield grade 4's as they get too fat too early which is a huge discount to the feeder.

We want you to know that we are not promoting or advocating a big cow, as you can get them too big. However, we think you need to run the right type of cow, the kind that your environment allows you to run and that maximizes your profit. We just wanted to point out that there is nothing wrong with a 1400 lbs cow if your environment allows it without pampering them. What we do think is important, is the type of cow you run. We feel it is real important to have an easy keeping, big bodied type cow, one that is sound, fertile, and has the performance in her to raise the type of calf that the feeder will want to feed. So, before you run out and change your program, do your own math and see what works for you. Remember, there is a reason why feedlots from all over the country come to this area to buy their calves, while paying a whole lot more for them here than they do anywhere else throughout the country.

 

[Tim/South]

Breed a 1,000 lb cow to a 1,800 lb low birth rate bull and the cow will grow a big calf.
Say a 1500 lb cow weans a calf that is 20 - 30 lbs heavier at weaning. The lighter weight calf will bring more per pound and close to the same money.

 

[BRG]

Most folks agree that size matters, and there are some commercial cows that are just too big. In my area > 1500# cows would diffinently be considered "big", and 1300# cows would be considered average. A few folks brag about the calves that wean off small cows, but there is not much data out there for how small is too small ?

Any thoughts on this for a grazing based commercial cow/calf operation ?

Along with what I wrote above, we need to understand your environment. If you are further south, the animals will naturally be smaller compared to the animals in the north, not just livestock, but nearly all animals.

 

[dun]

Breed a 1,000 lb cow to a 1,800 lb low birth rate bull and the cow will grow a big calf.
Say a 1500 lb cow weans a calf that is 20 - 30 lbs heavier at weaning. The lighter weight calf will bring more per pound and close to the same money.

The only catch is frame size. A medium frame calf isn;t going to bring the same dollars cwt as the large frame calf. Here they want large mediums to medium large framed calf. Outside of that and you get docked. The dock is usually around a dime a pound.

 

[Aaron]

Most folks agree that size matters, and there are some commercial cows that are just too big. In my area > 1500# cows would diffinently be considered "big", and 1300# cows would be considered average. A few folks brag about the calves that wean off small cows, but there is not much data out there for how small is too small ?

Any thoughts on this for a grazing based commercial cow/calf operation ?

If I remember tonight, I will start going through my herd, back say 10 years, and get an average on weights of mature cows sold as culls versus average weight of weaned calves sold in the same year. See if there is any trend.

 

[WalnutCrest]

Most folks agree that size matters, and there are some commercial cows that are just too big. In my area > 1500# cows would diffinently be considered "big", and 1300# cows would be considered average. A few folks brag about the calves that wean off small cows, but there is not much data out there for how small is too small ?

Any thoughts on this for a grazing based commercial cow/calf operation ?

If I remember tonight, I will start going through my herd, back say 10 years, and get an average on weights of mature cows sold as culls versus average weight of weaned calves sold in the same year. See if there is any trend.

That sounds like an interesting project. I'm looking forward to what you come up with.

 

[SPH]

The cows around the 1300# range are probably going to be more efficient than the ones that are on the extremes to either side of that weight range. Dun mentioned frame size, that plays a factor too, larger cows probably will need more to maintain their weight. Over or under condition on cows can effect things too, a light/small cow that also is under conditioned may spend a lot of energy trying to maintain and gain weight back while nursing a calf. I'm not a fan of guys that have females that are carrying too much condition either and let them get fat because they are feeding them too much as that can cause fertility issues just as much as an under-conditioned cow.

 

[wacocowboy]

I like my cows around 1300lbs down to as low as 1200lbs any lower and she has to be a heck of a momma for her to stay if a heifer looks like she is going to be a small cow when she is around 2yrs old I don't even calve her out just take her to the sale bred and buy something else

 

[dun]

I'm curious as to when which weights are being used. We have mostly 1300-1400 lb cows at calving that wean 650-750 lb calves and the cows loose anywhere from 175-225 lbs from calving to weaning.

 

[dun]

I'm curious as to when which weights are being used. We have mostly 1300-1400 lb cows at calving that wean 650-750 lb calves and the cows loose anywhere from 175-225 lbs from calving to weaning.

We've got a couple of 1100-1000 lb cows at calving that we alwasy get beat up when the calves are sold. They're carrying the weight but the frame isn;t what's wanted

 

[Backbone Ranch]

Smaller cows have their advantages. They eat less and therefore they cost less to maintain through the winter. We prefer to have our cattle in the 1200-1300 lb range. A few hundred pounds heavier, the cows quickly become inefficient on grass.
1550 lb cow with 6 month old bull

1240 lb cow with 7 month old bull

The bull from the 1550 pound cow was weaned at 672 lbs. He was 3 weeks older at weaning than the bull calf from the 1240 lb cow. The bull from the 1240 lb cow was weaned at 682 pounds. The smaller cow weaned a calf that was 55 percent of her body weight and the bigger cow weaned a calf that was 43 percent of her body weight. Our smaller cows frequently outperform our larger cows. Our average frame score in our herd is a 4, but our average weight is 1,282 lbs.

 

[Limomike]

Most of our cows are in the 1200-1300lb range. I do have some holdovers from years ago that are 1500-1600lb range though. Our lower weight cows have produced consistantly calves that wean at 550-625. ?They also hold their conditon after calving. Now the heavier weight cows, produce around the same size calves, BUT will lose conditon every time they calve, and takes a good 3-5 months for them to gain it back.

 

[SPH]

I'm curious as to when which weights are being used. We have mostly 1300-1400 lb cows at calving that wean 650-750 lb calves and the cows loose anywhere from 175-225 lbs from calving to weaning.

Good question, depending on when you weigh cows opinions of what "ideal" weights could vary. We run our cows across the scale the same day we run the calves across it at weaning. It's a good way to see how that cow has held up over the summer while nursing. This past year was one that it was really interesting to compare the weights as we have had 2 drought years in a row now that have been hard on the cattle and some of the cows were close to 100# less at weaning this year than they were after the first year of going through a drought. Having to compensate by feeding more corn to help them regain some condition before calving.

 

[dun]

Good question, depending on when you weigh cows opinions of what "ideal" weights could vary. We run our cows across the scale the same day we run the calves across it at weaning. It's a good way to see how that cow has held up over the summer while nursing. This past year was one that it was really interesting to compare the weights as we have had 2 drought years in a row now that have been hard on the cattle and some of the cows were close to 100# less at weaning this year than they were after the first year of going through a drought. Having to compensate by feeding more corn to help them regain some condition before calving.

We weigh ours when we wean the calves but also right when they calve when we weigh the babys. All ours get is grass (hay when we have to) minerals and water, they will gain back that weight they lost by the time the calve again the following year. They calve right at BCS 6 or a tick above or below. Heifers I prefer to calve at 6.5 or a little more. They usually loose a little more in pounds by weaning but they still will gain it all back over the winter.

 

[UG]

Like what some of the others have stated, I too lean toward a 1300 pound cow for my ideal weight.

Some seedstock producers have promoted that smaller cows are more efficient. However, J.D. Radakovich and Ms. Johnson, from the Texas A&M King Ranch Institute presented their research at BIF a few years ago. Their research showed that there are efficient and inefficient cows of all sizes, and that we can't assume that a small cow is efficient and that a big cow is inefficient.

I find it interesting that most seedstock producers who promote their "low input/smaller cow" breeding philosophies rarely provide actual feedlot and carcass data on their cattle. They are focused on what they perceive as maternal efficiency and calving ease, and seem to ignore what others down the beef supply chain want. However, it is difficult to stay in business for long if you don't make what the consumer (in this case feedlot and packer) wants.

The head of purchasing and risk management for one of the largest cattle feeding operations in the country has told me that they will not bid on cattle if they know that they are out of bulls from these "low input/smaller cattle" seedstock programs. The smaller cattle tend to finish too quickly, have too much fat and too small of a carcass (it costs nearly as much to process a 600 pound carcass as a 900 pound carcass so the cost per pound of processing is much higher for the smaller carcass).

 

[piedmontese]

$4850 per bull? Yea I know u can pay that and a lot more but I can sure buy good bulls pretty regularly for $2500-$3500.

 

[houstoncutter]

Here is an article I wrote after researching this subject.

The 1400 lbs cow vs the 1100 lbs cow

There seems to be a huge push in the industry right now to make your cows small. We are told they are more efficient and you will make more money off a small cow because you can supposedly run 20% more cows on the same feed. We are also told a lighter weight calf will bring more per pound. Well that sounds real good. But let's dig into it a little deeper and make it an apple to apples comparison.

Let's start with the first argument. The industry tells us that you should be able to run 20% more cows on the same amount of feed when comparing an 1100 lbs cow to a 1400 lbs cow. So let's compare a ranch that can run 600 head of 1100 lbs cows compared to 500 head of 1400 lbs cows on the same feed resources.
After a 5% death loss, you should have 285 steers off of the 1100 lbs cow herd. If the calves weigh 44% of the cows weight, the average weaning weight will be 484 lbs with an average price of $190/cwt or $921/calf (by using the average price on Superior's Steam Boat Springs Sale). If you replace 15% of the cows a year, that comes to 90 cull cows that weigh 1100 lbs and sell for $.81 or $891 each. To replace those cows you will need to retain 105 heifers annually. Of the heifer calves you sell off the cow (after a 5% death loss) you will have 180 head that average $846 if they sell $10/cwt back from the steers. Of these replacement heifers in which you try to breed, you will cull 15%, or 16 head. If your cows mature out at 1100 lbs, then these heifers will be around 800 lbs. Taking the average Superior price of $135/cwt, they would be worth $1080 each. Now you will need 5 more bulls to breed these cows and heifers since you have more cattle (15 heifers and 100 cows), and I used our last year bull sale average of $4850 a bull. So after you add up all the income and expenses, the gross off of your 600 cows is $487,875

Now, let's figure the 500 head ranch full of 1400 lbs cows. After a 5% death loss you would have 237 steers that weaned off at 43% of the dams body weight, for an average weaning weight of 602 lbs with an average price of $172/cwt or $1035 per steer calf (by using the average price on Superior's Steam Boat Springs Sale). If you cull 15% of the cows, you will have 75 head of 1400 lbs cows to sell at the same price as the 1100 lbs cow of .81/cwt for a total of $1134/cow. You would need to retain 90 head of replacement heifers to replace the 15% of cull cows. So you would then sell 148 heifers to sell off the cow (after a 5% death loss) at $954 each, priced at $10/cwt back from the steer mates. If you have the same amount open as the other group, which is 15%, you would have 14 head to sell that will weigh 1000 lbs, and by using the average price for that weight on Superior, they would be worth $128/cwt or $1280 each. After adding everything up, the gross sales are $492,092.

So as you can see, it is actually the opposite of what they tell us. By these figures, the difference is over$4000 more made off the 1400 lbs cow. What isn't figured in yet is the extra calving facilities, labor you have at calving, pasture care, etc, plus the extra vet expenses you have to run the extra cows, or in this case, 100 head of cows and their calves and 19 replacement heifers. After you add that all up, it could cost you from $10,000 to $15,000 or more annually to have the smaller made cow. Plus, this type of smaller framed calf will not get the premium sale day just because he is lighter. The lighter calves that get the real premium are the second cuts of the medium framed cows, as the smaller framed calves will finish too small and have higher yield grade 4's as they get too fat too early which is a huge discount to the feeder.

We want you to know that we are not promoting or advocating a big cow, as you can get them too big. However, we think you need to run the right type of cow, the kind that your environment allows you to run and that maximizes your profit. We just wanted to point out that there is nothing wrong with a 1400 lbs cow if your environment allows it without pampering them. What we do think is important, is the type of cow you run. We feel it is real important to have an easy keeping, big bodied type cow, one that is sound, fertile, and has the performance in her to raise the type of calf that the feeder will want to feed. So, before you run out and change your program, do your own math and see what works for you. Remember, there is a reason why feedlots from all over the country come to this area to buy their calves, while paying a whole lot more for them here than they do anywhere else throughout the country.

BRG I find your numbers very interesting , and don't really dispute as you put them forth. My only question would be is this a strickly a grassfed situation with no hay or feed being fed. If not, this would greatly change your numbers I would think

 

[Aaron]

I haven't done 10 years of weaning weight crunching, but for now, I have 2 years of data, over 10 years apart. These are for spring-born calves, although 1999 would have been FEB/MARCH and 2012 would be APRIL/MAY. Another variable is that 1999 cows still had small % amounts of Shorthorn/Charolais/Holstein in some of the herd, whereas 2012 is about 99% pure Hereford. Differences in bulls also comes into play. Lots of variables.

1999
AVG 205 HEIFERS - 471 lbs
AVG 205 STEERS - 473 lbs
AVG CULL COW WEIGHT - 1080 lbs


2003
AVG 205 HEIFERS - 477 lbs
AVG 205 STEERS - 529 lbs
AVG CULL COW WEIGHT - 1356 lbs


2012
AVG 205 HEIFERS - 534 lbs
AVG 205 STEERS - 541 lbs
AVG CULL COW WEIGHT - 1442 lbs


2013
AVG 205 HEIFERS - 534 lbs
AVG 205 STEERS - 534 lbs
AVG CULL COW WEIGHT - 1221 lbs


I'll work on other years now.


EDIT: ADDED 2003 and 2013 DATA

 

[Dega Moo]

I may be a bit confused but if you're running 600 1100 pound cows you have 660,000 pound of cows and you're comparing that to 500 1400 pound cows for 700,000 pound of cows. Seems to me there's room for 36 more of those 1100 pound cows, which means there would be 17 more steers and 17 more heifers ..... The other way to look at it would be to divide those 700,000 pounds up amongst 600 cows which would get you 1166 pound cows rather than 1100 pound girls.

What am I missing?