To lime or not to lime....

[Mark Reynolds]

Ok. I'm not Shakespeare. But liming is one of the most important things that we can address on our pastures and hayfields. It's WAY more important than fertilization and if not properly addressed, can render any fertilization effort totally pointless. I'm starting this thread as a result of another post where a soil test showed a pH of 5.7 but did not call for a lime application. A rare occurrence, but given the right circumstances, this is an accurate assessment from the soil test. Check out the attached article. I need to study it some more myself, but if you follow the article/publication closely, you can formulate some instances (rare occurrences) where lime is not called for yet the pH is low. I suspect soils that fall in this category present some unique challenges, not to mention properties, that someone with these soils needs to be aware of. I don't yet know what those are.

Facts about Soil Acidity and Lime

Questions and answers about soil acidity and lime.

www.canr.msu.edu

#21 should make you stop and think.

 

[Little Joe]

I hear a lot of people around me lime and fertilize without soil samples, I generally tell them the facts about that and tell them they are wasting money, most don't listen. These same people generally spray every year with no idea whether or not the chemical they are using is the best use for the targeted weeds. I was always told that if you have sage grass you need lime, not true, my ph is 6.5-6.8 and I have a lot of good grass but still a little scattered sage. I do however need potash but if I were to lime based off of the fact I have sage, it would be a waste of money and could possibly raise the ph too much.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

I hear a lot of people around me lime and fertilize without soil samples, I generally tell them the facts about that and tell them they are wasting money, most don't listen. These same people generally spray every year with no idea whether or not the chemical they are using is the best use for the targeted weeds. I was always told that if you have sage grass you need lime, not true, my ph is 6.5-6.8 and I have a lot of good grass but still a little scattered sage. I do however need potash but if I were to lime based off of the fact I have sage, it would be a waste of money and could possibly raise the ph too much.

Your sage grass (or broomsedge) in all actuality grows in areas where there is a low AVAILABILITY of potash.

There can be ample potash present but not AVAILABLE in the soil because LOW pH results in the potash being bound. This is the more often experienced scenario when lime being added to the soil will raise the pH and make the potash AVAILABLE.

The other possible scenario, the one you are experiencing @Little Joe, is when the actual AMOUNT of potash in the soil is low. This of course means that since it is not there, it is not available. Adding lime in this case won't do any good.

The pH of the soil can't really be raised 'too much' by lime as about the most lime itself could really raise pH to would be about 7.2, and if you put that much lime on, you will likely have other issues other than pH. pH can be considerably higher in soils typically in the Western US. These are alkali soils. Maybe you have heard of an alkali flat, or playa. A dried up desert lakebed. Alkali because of the concentrated salts.

 

[Dave]

In places around here we have sodic soils. The pH might be as high as 10. They are interesting and difficult to deal with. Getting anything to grow on there is a struggle. I know one place with sodic soil that has 2 center pivots for irrigation. Those pivots are constantly getting stuck.

Just a couple miles down the road is a place called "Lime". There was a lime plant there. It is gone now but it does give you an idea what a lot of the soil around here is made of. Closer there is a very active cement plant. They have been and still are mining of the entire side of a mountain. Processing it down to fine material and shipping out both trucks and rail cars of the cement. When I rebuilt my corral I had to dig the holes with a mini excavator. It took a while to the 30-40 posts set in the holes. We had a bit of rain. A day or so later I couldn't get a shovel stuck into the material which came out of the hole. I had to break the pile with the loader tractor. The outside inch or so was loosely set up like concrete. I complained about this to B. He pointed out that I was maybe only 5 miles as the crow flies from a very large cement plant.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

In places around here we have sodic soils. The pH might be as high as 10. They are interesting and difficult to deal with. Getting anything to grow on there is a struggle. I know one place with sodic soil that has 2 center pivots for irrigation. Those pivots are constantly getting stuck.

Just a couple miles down the road is a place called "Lime". There was a lime plant there. It is gone now but it does give you an idea what a lot of the soil around here is made of. Closer there is a very active cement plant. They have been and still are mining of the entire side of a mountain. Processing it down to fine material and shipping out both trucks and rail cars of the cement. When I rebuilt my corral I had to dig the holes with a mini excavator. It took a while to the 30-40 posts set in the holes. We had a bit of rain. A day or so later I couldn't get a shovel stuck into the material which came out of the hole. I had to break the pile with the loader tractor. The outside inch or so was loosely set up like concrete. I complained about this to B. He pointed out that I was maybe only 5 miles as the crow flies from a very large cement plant.

Your sodic soils are interesting, and definitely a challenge. I imagine most individuals that have these soils are aware of the grass alkali sacatron, or Sporobolus airoides. Everyone here in the east (most everyone anyway) will do a double take when I type this:

Sporobolus airoides tolerates/grows in soils with a pH of 7 to 9.

It is also palatable to cattle.

Your pHs of 10 might be a bit tough for it, although the grass will tackle a lot of those soils that are problematic a lot easier than 'conventional' grasses. Yes, the seed is available for pasture plantings.

https://plants.usda.gov/DocumentLibrary/plantguide/pdf/pg_spai.pdf

@Dave, you are making me remember stuff from 25+ years ago! Another plant for you to look at is tall wheatgrass. It is also salt/sodic/alkali tolerant, more-so than the other wheat grasses, although most of them are at least somewhat.

 

[Little Joe]

Your sage grass (or broomsedge) in all actuality grows in areas where there is a low AVAILABILITY of potash.

There can be ample potash present but not AVAILABLE in the soil because LOW pH results in the potash being bound. This is the more often experienced scenario when lime being added to the soil will raise the pH and make the potash AVAILABLE.

The other possible scenario, the one you are experiencing @Little Joe, is when the actual AMOUNT of potash in the soil is low. This of course means that since it is not there, it is not available. Adding lime in this case won't do any good.

The pH of the soil can't really be raised 'too much' by lime as about the most lime itself could really raise pH to would be about 7.2, and if you put that much lime on, you will likely have other issues other than pH. pH can be considerably higher in soils typically in the Western US. These are alkali soils. Maybe you have heard of an alkali flat, or playa. A dried up desert lakebed. Alkali because of the concentrated salts.

I'm about to put chicken litter on it at 1 ton/acre. I'll sample again in the fall and see where I'm at.

 

[BC]

I'm about to put chicken litter on it at 1 ton/acre. I'll sample again in the fall and see where I'm at.

Have you done a soil test? If you are going to use chicken litter remember it is not the best source of potassium. If my memory serves me, broiler litter has N-P-K in a 2-2-1 ratio.

 

[Little Joe]

Have you done a soil test? If you are going to use chicken litter remember it is not the best source of potassium. If my memory serves me, broiler litter has N-P-K in a 2-2-1 ratio.

Yes, soil sample shows I need potash, some of my ground is newly converted and is lacking in fertility which is why I'll go with litter while available and come back in fall and test again and add potash if still needed. From my experience with litter in past , you get a lot of bang for your buck.

 

[Nick Wagner]

Yes, soil sample shows I need potash, some of my ground is newly converted and is lacking in fertility which is why I'll go with litter while available and come back in fall and test again and add potash if still needed. From my experience with litter in past , you get a lot of bang for your buck.

Manure, best fertilizer God ever made.

 

[Nick Wagner]

Ok. I'm not Shakespeare. But liming is one of the most important things that we can address on our pastures and hayfields. It's WAY more important than fertilization and if not properly addressed, can render any fertilization effort totally pointless. I'm starting this thread as a result of another post where a soil test showed a pH of 5.7 but did not call for a lime application. A rare occurrence, but given the right circumstances, this is an accurate assessment from the soil test. Check out the attached article. I need to study it some more myself, but if you follow the article/publication closely, you can formulate some instances (rare occurrences) where lime is not called for yet the pH is low. I suspect soils that fall in this category present some unique challenges, not to mention properties, that someone with these soils needs to be aware of. I don't yet know what those are.

Facts about Soil Acidity and Lime

Questions and answers about soil acidity and lime.

www.canr.msu.edu

#21 should make you stop and think.

Doesn't say anything about plants needing calcium. I started farming this eroded clay farm in 1991, ph ranged from 7.1-7.4. Local fertilizer salesmen, oops, agronomists, said I didn't need lime. Clay would build up, stick to, boots and tires, the most susceptible soil to compaction I ever saw. In 14 years, my best corn yield was 127 bu/acre. Applied Huron Lime, a byproduct available locally, almost pure calcium carbonate, mixed in with manure, on 7acres, came to about 3 ton lime per acre. Planted field to corn, about 28 acres. Could see the difference from the road. Hand checked, lime 240, control 130.

I stopped in to the extension office, said I'm not asking if it works, I want to know why? Extension agent said, "we've found the soils in eastern Seneca County don't respond to standard Tri-state recommendations." Fertilizer salesman, university trained and credentialed, told me I would ruin my farm applying that lime.

Calcium deficiency is a real thing, Dr. Albrecht proved it. Darn shame the Ohio State University is 100 years behind.

Not reflecting on you Mark, you've impressed me a number of times with your knowledge. This lime thing just triggers me from my experience with university trained "experts."

You might check out my comments on the related thread, cow not cleaning out.

Nick

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Doesn't say anything about plants needing calcium. I started farming this eroded clay farm in 1991, ph ranged from 7.1-7.4. Local fertilizer salesmen, oops, agronomists, said I didn't need lime. Clay would build up, stick to, boots and tires, the most susceptible soil to compaction I ever saw. In 14 years, my best corn yield was 127 bu/acre. Applied Huron Lime, a byproduct available locally, almost pure calcium carbonate, mixed in with manure, on 7acres, came to about 3 ton lime per acre. Planted field to corn, about 28 acres. Could see the difference from the road. Hand checked, lime 240, control 130.

I stopped in to the extension office, said I'm not asking if it works, I want to know why? Extension agent said, "we've found the soils in eastern Seneca County don't respond to standard Tri-state recommendations." Fertilizer salesman, university trained and credentialed, told me I would ruin my farm applying that lime.

Calcium deficiency is a real thing, Dr. Albrecht proved it. Darn shame the Ohio State University is 100 years behind.

Not reflecting on you Mark, you've impressed me a number of times with your knowledge. This lime thing just triggers me from my experience with university trained "experts."

You might check out my comments on the related thread, cow not cleaning out.

Nick

I agree that plants need calcium and that it can be lacking. I have seen that before. It does largely get ignored. Lime for pH and calcium as a nutrient are two different things to consider, which usually gets overlooked.

Thank you for the compliment. I will be the first to say I don't know everything. I don't let comments like that go to my head. I've had people tell me that I darn near walk on water, to which reply: "I can, but only if the water is frozen."

I work in Ohio and work a fair bit with Ohio State University Extension. Most of them are very knowledgeable and have critical thinking skills. There are those that are questionable as well. Although my MS comes from OSU, it is not Ohio. It is Oregon State University, which serves to explain some of my knowledge about the tall wheatgrass and alkali sacatron.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Doesn't say anything about plants needing calcium. I started farming this eroded clay farm in 1991, ph ranged from 7.1-7.4. Local fertilizer salesmen, oops, agronomists, said I didn't need lime. Clay would build up, stick to, boots and tires, the most susceptible soil to compaction I ever saw. In 14 years, my best corn yield was 127 bu/acre. Applied Huron Lime, a byproduct available locally, almost pure calcium carbonate, mixed in with manure, on 7acres, came to about 3 ton lime per acre. Planted field to corn, about 28 acres. Could see the difference from the road. Hand checked, lime 240, control 130.

I stopped in to the extension office, said I'm not asking if it works, I want to know why? Extension agent said, "we've found the soils in eastern Seneca County don't respond to standard Tri-state recommendations." Fertilizer salesman, university trained and credentialed, told me I would ruin my farm applying that lime.

Calcium deficiency is a real thing, Dr. Albrecht proved it. Darn shame the Ohio State University is 100 years behind.

Not reflecting on you Mark, you've impressed me a number of times with your knowledge. This lime thing just triggers me from my experience with university trained "experts."

You might check out my comments on the related thread, cow not cleaning out.

Nick

@Nick Wagner, I have a degree in Animal Science as well but don't often directly apply it. That said, low calcium levels in animals results in a number of problems. Grass tetany comes to mind here. The calcium itself really (typically) isn't the problem. Its magnesium imbalance (usually) that throws the calcium balance in the animal off. The calcium imbalance is then what kills the animal. Look what the vet gives to treat grass tetany.

Aside from tetany, low calcium causes other problems including birthing problems and issues with milk production. The tie of calcium in the forage (lack there of) is worth more consideration in pasture amendments. Not all of my knowledge is from the university, or talking to producers. James Harriott, veterinarian and author, has one of his chapters that he talks about an injection of calcium to a cow that was down, in labor, but wasn't progressing. The calcium fixed the problem very quickly (minutes or less, I don't recall) and I think the labor was most of the night. Anyone remember that chapter? I forget which book it is in as well.

 

[Nick Wagner]

@Nick Wagner, I have a degree in Animal Science as well but don't often directly apply it. That said, low calcium levels in animals results in a number of problems. Grass tetany comes to mind here. The calcium itself really (typically) isn't the problem. Its magnesium imbalance (usually) that throws the calcium balance in the animal off. The calcium imbalance is then what kills the animal. Look what the vet gives to treat grass tetany.

Aside from tetany, low calcium causes other problems including birthing problems and issues with milk production. The tie of calcium in the forage (lack there of) is worth more consideration in pasture amendments. Not all of my knowledge is from the university, or talking to producers. James Harriott, veterinarian and author, has one of his chapters that he talks about an injection of calcium to a cow that was down, in labor, but wasn't progressing. The calcium fixed the problem very quickly (minutes or less, I don't recall) and I think the labor was most of the night. Anyone remember that chapter? I forget which book it is in as well.

Read them all a lifetime ago, don't remember exactly. Haven't thought of them, probably should read them again. Thanks, Nick

 

[StrojanHerefords]

Neal Kinsey's Hands on Agronomy is a great starter on the subject of soil chemistry. There is a lot of nuance when it comes to soils and a lot of ways for things to go wrong. Lime not ground fine enough won't do any thing, Dolomitic lime won't help if the soils are high magnesium.

 

[ClinchValley86]

Based on the information I've digested and the little experiments I've done here on the farm over the last few years, I am convinced all of it points back to organic matter and a lack of balanced soil biology.

The low ph, low P availability, presence of broomsage, and so on are all symptoms.

We've got to get a grasp on proper soil biology and stop applying all this stuff to pasture/crop ground. Nationally speaking. Otherwise we are just wasting money to never really get anywhere. It may get good for a short time but it's temporary. Manure and litter is all we need. The level of inputs currently being applies baffles me.

The subsidies being put to a halt should push people to learn better ways. Hopefully it's a temporary halt, but if not I do understand. It makes the producer nothing more than a stepping stone in money laundering from the tax payer coffers.

There are people increasing OM at a significant rate and most/all other measurable values are improving right along with it.

Just my opinion.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Based on the information I've digested and the little experiments I've done here on the farm over the last few years, I am convinced all of it points back to organic matter and a lack of balanced soil biology.

The low ph, low P availability, presence of broomsage, and so on are all symptoms.

We've got to get a grasp on proper soil biology and stop applying all this stuff to pasture/crop ground. Nationally speaking. Otherwise we are just wasting money to never really get anywhere. It may get good for a short time but it's temporary. Manure and litter is all we need. The level of inputs currently being applies baffles me.

The subsidies being put to a halt should push people to learn better ways. Hopefully it's a temporary halt, but if not I do understand. It makes the producer nothing more than a stepping stone in money laundering from the tax payer coffers.

There are people increasing OM at a significant rate and most/all other measurable values are improving right along with it.w

Just my opinion.

Organic Matter is a great balancer or moderator or equalizer, maybe mitigator is a better word. However, it is not a magic bullet or cure all for everything. Everything works together. I'm going to throw something else out there as well. Is a soil with a pH of 5, low OM, low potassium a 'bad' or 'poor' soil? The same question can be asked about a sodic soil that is high in salts with a pH of 10.

'Good' and 'bad' are values based on what we determine is desirable. Often it is more a statement of 'it is what it is'. At that point, we make a determination if that is good or bad as what steps can be taken to change that, if it can be changed, and we make a decision if we want to change it and if we have the resources to make that change, and if e have the tenacity to see the change through.

The blueberry farmer does not want a pH of 7.

Broomsage is a native grass that grows in dense stands naturally in many areas. The pH is below neutral, phosphorous is low. The soil isn't suitable for the grasses we desire. But, we can change that. @wbvs58 can probably better explain vast stands of grass that look to be suitable for livestock but because of the soil and grass species, they are only suited for a few kangaroos. Those stands occur naturally.

 

[ClinchValley86]

I just think lots of the ground is now degraded when it once was very productive. If we can get that soil function back up and running we could all learn some stuff along the way.

I'm not saying it's all Organic Matter, but I do think it's all connected.

On your blueberry point, I was hiking in NC, outside Asheville I believe, high up in the mountains. There were dwarf blueberry plants covering the rocky mountain tops. Tiny leaves, tiny fruit, tiny everything. It was all so very neat. I don't know how they were surviving cause there's hardly any soil up there. Blueberries must be super tough.

 

[Mark Reynolds]

No doubt that it is all connected, and there are undoubtedly many connections we don't even know about as of yet.

You are correct about blueberries. There are many different species. They do seem to have a tendency to occupy the 'younger' or less developed' soils now that you mention that. I recall at the boy scout camp I attended, there was this patch of rocky, sandy, highly eroded ground that had only a few different plants growing on it. Very low diversity. Some of those plants were blueberries. They did not grow anywhere else in the camp.

 

[sstterry]

On your blueberry point, I was hiking in NC, outside Asheville I believe, high up in the mountains. There were dwarf blueberry plants covering the rocky mountain tops. Tiny leaves, tiny fruit, tiny everything. It was all so very neat. I don't know how they were surviving cause there's hardly any soil up there. Blueberries must be super tough.

As I recall, Blueberries generally prefer more acid soil. The Smoky Mountains receive the highest percentage of acid rain of any park in the country. That may contribute to them being able to thrive.

The acid rain problem is slowly improving with the transition away from coal. But it is still there.