To castrate or not to castrate?

[IluvABbeef]

I've always wondered about this:

What do you folks look for in a bull calf that "says" it needs to be castrated? Like what sort of conformation (?), or some other facors are there that judges whether to keep the bull calf intact or not?

I'm really curious, and since I help raise steers back at home, I would really like to know about this sort of thing.

 

[Family Tradition]

ILAB I have all the mama cows I need right now and I'm not raising seed stock so all of the bull calves are marked. If in the future I put a Hereford bull on my Hereford cows then I will be watching for somthing special if I don't see it I mark em.

 

[IluvABbeef]

Okay....but I still haven't got my question answered yet, unless it's too hard of one for you to think about, or else there's too many popular posts right now to really "focus" on this.

Crap, I probably made the same mistake of putting this on the wrong board...AGAIN... :roll: :x

...sorry folks...

Well, what the heck, I'll try again. This time I'll try a scenario... If this doesn't work, I don't know what else will...

Okay. Say that I have a Simmi cow that was bred to an angus bull. Bull (registered black angus) has good conformation, good EPD's, low BW, etc. The cow, also has good conformation and an excellent record of giving birth to healthy calves, only she has given me just heifers...until now. So the Simmi calved and out popped a healthy bull calf, a black one . However, not being fooled by the "awww, ain't he cute" attitude that most always crops up at calving time, (and the momma makes sure I don't over do it ;-) ) I have to determine by MYSELF whether to keep him intact or band/cut him. So, being a true greenhorn at cow-calf operations (as it is already) and eager to learn all there is about the business, I have a serious question in mind, which is this:
HOW do you know what to look for in a calf in order to know whether he needs to be castrated or not?

(I hope that helps. If not, well, I guess I'll just have to wait for the dust to settle around here then...)

Thanks anyways in advance.

 

[SEC]

Castrate him he is a crossbred!

 

[Nebraska Sandhills]

Well, one thing to look for conformation wise is if he shows above average muscle and thickness, yet is smooth made. You dont want a bull that is coarse in his shoulders unless you like pulling calves. He should be sound on his feet and not cow-hocked. Other things to consider would be his own birthweight and performance data, disposition, scrotal size, etc. Unless he has some features that set him apart from the rest of the calves or a certain bloodline you're after, cut him and send him down the road.

 

[warpaint]

As already said, unless he's an outstanding prospect, cut him. There are many bull calves born every year. Fortunately only about 30% of my calves this year were.

 

[sainty01]

Castrate him he is a mongrel.

 

[Brandonm2]

First of all what is the purpose of the cowherd?

If you have cows so that you can sell calves at the sale barn, produce beef, cut the grass behind the house, or give you some pets too play with, then castrate ALL the bull calves. The good ones, the bad ones, and the average ones. There are TOO many bulls out there for everybody to be producing breeding bulls willy nilly.

IF you bought/raised a select set of quality females and CAREFULLY selected sires to produce cattle that are above average quality and you have the time, money, and grass/grain to grow out bulls and market them; then and ONLY then do you need to be marketing bulls to other cattlemen.

Every breed and in fact every breeder is looking for something slightly different. Obviously structurally incorrect bulls, poor tracking bulls, weak topped bulls, really postilegged bulls, shallow ribbed/slab sided bulls, unthrifty, dwarf, and sickly bulls all need to be castrated no matter how expensive their mama was or how much you paid for the semen. Once the obvious calves are cut, it gets a little harder.

Now you got a decent set of calves with no automatic culls. Cut the calves whose birth weights were too extreme (most people would use the 100 lb number). You don't want too sell people bulls that will cause them dystocia problems. Along that line, bulls with unusually BIG square "pallet" heads or big, coarse shoulders also need to go under the knife. Lite muscled or narrow built cattle that are below average in muscling for the breed also need to be cut. Bulls who's momas are not good cows....poor breeders, poor mothers, or, more commonly, cows that came apart too quickly when in production also need to be cut. Even if you are selling the bull as a 'terminal' sire there is always a strong possibility that bull will wind up producing a crop of heifers and his daughters should not be a complete disaster.

At weaning run all your "bulls" thru the chute. Those that are "too lite" (bottom 20% of your calf crop) need to be cut. I like a 500 lb adjusted weaning weight cutoff number for British bulls....but obviously other breeders like a lower or higher number depending on their program, their breed, genetics, mgmnt level, goals, etc. While he is in the chute, measure his hip height and get a premliminary frame score.

Now comes the hard part. How many bulls can you effectively raise, feed, and market? You never want to feed out more bulls than you can grow out easily and you don't want to grow out more than you can possibly sell. IF this were your first time 5 or less would be a good number. Now that you have the number that you want, pick the best 5 (or 200 if that is your marketing goal number) out of the group. Look at the whole animal.....structure, muscling, weight, pedigree, sister's performance, frame score, thickness of bone, scrotal characteristics, eye appeal, EPDs, disposition, etc. Take your time and you might want to get advice from a veteran cattleman you know and trust. Pick the best and then castrate everything that is left. You now have a group of bulls too grow out and market.

Be warned though that the best bull the breed has every seen as a seven month old could go lame, have a failing yearling scrotal circumference, fall apart on feed, become weaktopped or just grow out bad so it is highly possible and indeed likely that some of those keepers ultimately get run thru the sale barn.

 

[IluvABbeef]

So I guess it all comes down to the fact that it's better to be making profit off of a bunch steers to be sold for beef than to have a future bull (or bulls) that will probably not do so well in th future for other herds that they get sold to.

And yikes, the hardest part seems like you gotta be really, really, REALLY picky when it comes to choosing the RIGHT bull calf, the one that meets all the requirements for body conformation (can't be too much nor too little), scrotal size, disposition, ect., etc., etc.,....

And like warpaint and Brandomn2 said, there's so many bulls out there anyway that it's really no use raising my own...(that's something for me to think about, as well as what's mentioned above, in the future if I DO start up my own cow-calf herd...)

Okay, I'm starting to understand a little now.

But what does mongrelism or being a cross breed has got to do with saying that he needs to be cut?
I know there's another thread on that, but I'm still gonna ask about it, just cuz I'm eager to learn more...

Oh and another thing, would you usually cut a bull calf if all it's momma ever calved were heifers? Or does it again depend on all the body conformation and all the other things to look for in an ideal bull?

Obviously structurally incorrect bulls, poor tracking bulls, weak topped bulls, really postilegged bulls, shallow ribbed/slab sided bulls, unthrifty, dwarf, and sickly bulls...

Now I have some more questions, due to my limitied vocab in this area...

What are "poor tracking bulls" and "weak-topped bulls"? And what about "postilegged bulls" and "unthrifty bulls"?

And how can a bull fall apart on feed? Does he get too fat, or not put enough muscle on, or what??
Last question, how too can a cow falling apart when in production?

Let me know if I'm asking too many questions, I don't mean to bombard you with so many...if I am, sorry...

Anyway, I'm getting a little longwinded here, so thanks agian for the responses so far, I'm sure learning alot.

 

[Brandonm2]

But what does mongrelism or being a cross breed has got to do with saying that he needs to be cut?

Typically you will get a more uniform and predictable calf crop from a purebred bull than just keeping your best crossbred commercial calf. A bull's daughters should stay in the herd for 12-16 years so IF they aren't any good you really pay for it in the long term. I am not getting into the crossbred bull debate, but almost everybody would agree that keeping a bull out of a stock yard cow of an unknown sure, even when he looks great is very risky and is not comparable too a seedstock producer who produces F1s or composites.

Now I have some more questions, due to my limitied vocab in this area...

What are "poor tracking bulls" and "weak-topped bulls"? And what about "postilegged bulls" and "unthrifty bulls"?

And how can a bull fall apart on feed? Does he get too fat, or not put enough muscle on, or what??
Last question, how too can a cow falling apart when in production?

"poor tracking" means he does not move real well. He could be all out lame or he takes little choppy steps or his knees rub together when he moves, his hooves are cracked up or there is too much cushion on his back legs where he looks like he is bouncing with each step (like a pickup with completely wore out shocks).

bull "falling apart" A bull is being grown out. Conformation problems that were not apparent when he was 7 months olf can become apparent during the growing out phase. He can founder or he can just stop growing and become a fat ugly litle toad. He could get pneumonia. There are 50 things that can go wrong and turn a good bull prospect into a cull or a corpse. All of whom fit under the title "falling apart".

"weak topped" refers to too much curve in his spine. If his shoulders (not to be confused with a bullish hump) are ~ level with his hips but there is a very large very noticable valley or worse the letter V in between.....that is what we call "weak topped" or a "weak topline". That will get worse over time and it is about 80% heritable so he will pass that poor structure on to his offspring.

A "cow falling apart". All cows end up with stretched out udders, poor toplines, and a limp if you keep them around long enough (15-22 years); when it happens before they are 10 that is a problem. Poor structure will cause a cow too earn an early ride on the cull truck. If a bull's mama is 7 years old and stepping on her own teats because the udder is poorly attached or your are shooting her because she got down on that bad foot and can't get up.....you probably do not want to keep breeding stock out of her progeny. Cow longevity is a MAJOR economically important trait that often goes overlooked.

"unthrifty" When your herd average weaning weight is 570, that calf with the ugly shaggy coat, who you can hear breathing 35 foot away, with three weeks worth of diarrhea stuck on his tail, and a weaning weight of 325 even though you wormed him TWICE and treated him with Pennicillin or Tylan 200 a couple of times.....that is text book "unthrifty". Once you get throught castrating him.....sell him and his mom too.

"postilegged" or "post legged" refers to those bulls who stand with their rear legs perfectly straight under them literally like a fence post. There is no sickle shape to the hocks, no cushion on the pasterns, and often if you watch he takes short choppy steps rather than long smooth steps. He has bad rear wheels and every step probably is hurting him. These bulls often end up lame and they have difficulty mounting a cow. Back in the 80s a bunch of cattle started getting this problem due to single trait selection for maximum hip height. They unwittingly bred for poor structured rear legs.

 

[IluvABbeef]

Thanks Brandonm2 for that