Thoughts on purebred vs crossbred heifers

[Chris H]

You will not be doing yourself or your heifers any favours by breeding a.i. to a Simmental. You are new to this and so are your heifers and the last thing you need to be doing is worrying about dystocia and pulling calves. Your little bull looks like a heifer bull to me! He will do the job, he will not injure your heifers or you, and you can monitor the calf weights, let us know if the w/f heifers' calf out performs the straight Angus calves.

Really? Simmental are just as easy (and hard) calving as Angus, or any other breed. It depends on the sire you use. Our little Angus heifer was AI'd to a Simmental bull, and she had no problems calving, though the calf was a little small for my likings! Please don't stereotype the Simmental breed into a calving nightmare for heifers, because they are just like any other breed; there are good ones and bad ones out there.
As for the OPs original question, the best place to look for simm-angus heifers is the breeders in your area. Here is a web site that lists breeders in TN for you.

http://www.breedingcattlepage.com/TNSim ... embers.htm

Hope that helps you, what ever you decide to do.

I'm not going to bash Simmentals, but the same hybrid vigor that makes a crossbred calf grow faster also translates into a higher birth weight.
I'd stick with a purebred bull on purebred heifers, preferable one that you know actual birthweights. That applies to almost any breed. After the first calf, then consider a different breed to get the crossbreds you want.

 

[Stocker Steve]

It is a lot faster, and perhaps less risky, to buy what the initial seed stock you want after touring an established operation.

 

[Taurus]

You will not be doing yourself or your heifers any favours by breeding a.i. to a Simmental. You are new to this and so are your heifers and the last thing you need to be doing is worrying about dystocia and pulling calves. Your little bull looks like a heifer bull to me! He will do the job, he will not injure your heifers or you, and you can monitor the calf weights, let us know if the w/f heifers' calf out performs the straight Angus calves.

Really? Simmental are just as easy (and hard) calving as Angus, or any other breed. It depends on the sire you use. Our little Angus heifer was AI'd to a Simmental bull, and she had no problems calving, though the calf was a little small for my likings! Please don't stereotype the Simmental breed into a calving nightmare for heifers, because they are just like any other breed; there are good ones and bad ones out there.
As for the OPs original question, the best place to look for simm-angus heifers is the breeders in your area. Here is a web site that lists breeders in TN for you.

http://www.breedingcattlepage.com/TNSim ... embers.htm

Hope that helps you, what ever you decide to do.

I'm not going to bash Simmentals, but the same hybrid vigor that makes a crossbred calf grow faster also translates into a higher birth weight.
I'd stick with a purebred bull on purebred heifers, preferable one that you know actual birthweights. That applies to almost any breed. After the first calf, then consider a different breed to get the crossbreds you want.

I would rather using a different purebred bull than using THAT unproven bull on the heifers. That said, I don't think you get that much hybrid vigor if you bred SimAngus to Angus heifers.

 

[Taurus]

You will not be doing yourself or your heifers any favours by breeding a.i. to a Simmental. You are new to this and so are your heifers and the last thing you need to be doing is worrying about dystocia and pulling calves. Your little bull looks like a heifer bull to me! He will do the job, he will not injure your heifers or you, and you can monitor the calf weights, let us know if the w/f heifers' calf out performs the straight Angus calves.

I completely disagree with you. He is not proven heifer bull and despite of him being purebred, you can still have calving problems from the heifers with unknown background.

 

[3waycross]

You will not be doing yourself or your heifers any favours by breeding a.i. to a Simmental. You are new to this and so are your heifers and the last thing you need to be doing is worrying about dystocia and pulling calves. Your little bull looks like a heifer bull to me! He will do the job, he will not injure your heifers or you, and you can monitor the calf weights, let us know if the w/f heifers' calf out performs the straight Angus calves.

I completely disagree with you. He is not proven heifer bull and despite of him being purebred, you can still have calving problems from the heifers with unknown background.

good post

 

[Jessica06]

People in Texas swear by Jerseys, Longhorns, and Corrientes on heifers. And of course, you can't leave out the highly sought after black hided Longhorn x Corriente cross! I used to be a little snobby about it, but learned the hard way that a live calf is infinitely preferable to no calf, and maybe no heifer. I personally still won't use any of those on heifers, but I think you can't go wrong with a heifer-type Angus bull. Maybe he isn't what some people consider herd sire material...not a bad thing with heifers. Chances are his calves won't sell for much less than calves out of a better bull that costs twice as much.

Also, proven doesn't mean a whole lot on a case-by-case basis. Even a time-tested calving ease legend will spit out a monster every now and then. If the heifers are at risk for calving problems on their side, it's kinda "darned if you do, darned if you don't." What does he have to lose with that bull?

 

[3waycross]

People in Texas swear by Jerseys, Longhorns, and Corrientes on heifers. And of course, you can't leave out the highly sought after black hided Longhorn x Corriente cross! I used to be a little snobby about it, but learned the hard way that a live calf is infinitely preferable to no calf, and maybe no heifer. I personally still won't use any of those on heifers, but I think you can't go wrong with a heifer-type Angus bull. Maybe he isn't what some people consider herd sire material...not a bad thing with heifers. Chances are his calves won't sell for much less than calves out of a better bull that costs twice as much.

Also, proven doesn't mean a whole lot on a case-by-case basis. Even a time-tested calving ease legend will spit out a monster every now and then. If the heifers are at risk for calving problems on their side, it's kinda "darned if you do, darned if you don't." What does he have to lose with that bull?

I think you answered your own question. This dink has no genetic testing, and the fact that he looks like a cow doesn't make him a heifer bull. He also is not registered, not sure why but i would question it? The last true heifer bull i used looked like a tank but had proven calving ease.

 

[Taurus]

I thought we are supposed to be against using inferior bulls as breeding animals and prevent them to produce more dinks?

 

[Calhoun Farm]

My bull actually is registered I just don't have the paper work yet. I'm going to try and call the seller and find out this bulls momma's reg # so that will give me an idea of what his epd's are.

 

[Calhoun Farm]

Just got his number. Here's his epd's.
http://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedDtl.a ... SXlQ%3d%3d

He is a calving ease bull, angus breed avg on non parent bulls is WW 46, and YW 84. He is WW 44 and YW 76. He is also +3 better on his milk so I could keep his heifers if I wanted to.

 

[3waycross]

Just got his number. Here's his epd's.
http://www.angus.org/Animal/EpdPedDtl.a ... SXlQ%3d%3d

He is a calving ease bull, angus breed avg on non parent bulls is WW 46, and YW 84. He is WW 44 and YW 76. He is also +3 better on his milk so I could keep his heifers if I wanted to.

Those numbers are good enuf to have him considered a calving ease bull most places i sell bulls. I guess what you do is up to you at this point.

FWIW i still would not use him without him passing a BSE.

 

[Jessica06]

I thought we are supposed to be against using inferior bulls as breeding animals and prevent them to produce more dinks?

Inferior is a pretty subjective term. One man's trash is another man's treasure? If he's black, polled, problem-free, and low-birthweight, what more can you ask for in a HEIFER bull. We bought some pretty nice, and pretty expensive, Angus heifer bulls two years ago. We didn't keep a single heifer. Just cut ties and sold the whole lot. I guess my point is that a typical heifer's calf is going to look like a heifer's calf. No point in going to a lot of trouble to find the "ideal" bull for them. If Calhoun's bull was cheap, well, even better. It'll be that much easier to sell him and upgrade when the time comes. :2cents:

 

[Taurus]

I thought we are supposed to be against using inferior bulls as breeding animals and prevent them to produce more dinks?

Inferior is a pretty subjective term. One man's trash is another man's treasure? If he's black, polled, problem-free, and low-birthweight, what more can you ask for in a HEIFER bull. We bought some pretty nice, and pretty expensive, Angus heifer bulls two years ago. We didn't keep a single heifer. Just cut ties and sold the whole lot. I guess my point is that a typical heifer's calf is going to look like a heifer's calf. No point in going to a lot of trouble to find the "ideal" bull for them. If Calhoun's bull was cheap, well, even better. It'll be that much easier to sell him and upgrade when the time comes. :2cents:

oh so now he's a quality bull that we don't even know if he is a heifer bull or a problem free bull beside a shitty growth rate? A heifer's calf will looks like a heifer's calf????????

 

[Chris H]

I thought we are supposed to be against using inferior bulls as breeding animals and prevent them to produce more dinks?

Inferior is a pretty subjective term. One man's trash is another man's treasure? If he's black, polled, problem-free, and low-birthweight, what more can you ask for in a HEIFER bull. We bought some pretty nice, and pretty expensive, Angus heifer bulls two years ago. We didn't keep a single heifer. Just cut ties and sold the whole lot. I guess my point is that a typical heifer's calf is going to look like a heifer's calf. No point in going to a lot of trouble to find the "ideal" bull for them. If Calhoun's bull was cheap, well, even better. It'll be that much easier to sell him and upgrade when the time comes. :2cents:

I'd have to disagree with you dismissing a heifer's calf. A couple of my top yearlings are heifers out of heifers who were out of heifers. I will admit they did not wean at the top, but they weren't dinks. And when weaned and fed a few pounds of grain a day, they gained like crazy. They had the frame, just not the flesh some of the heavier calves had.

Frankly, I don't worry a lot about BW EPD's any more. I know our genetics, I know our bulls genetics. I know actual birthweights. And I know our heifers will calve an 85 lb calf on their own, although I'd prefer a bit smaller.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

I'd have to disagree with you dismissing a heifer's calf. A couple of my top yearlings are heifers out of heifers who were out of heifers. I will admit they did not wean at the top, but they weren't dinks. And when weaned and fed a few pounds of grain a day, they gained like crazy. They had the frame, just not the flesh some of the heavier calves had.

Frankly, I don't worry a lot about BW EPD's any more. I know our genetics, I know our bulls genetics. I know actual birthweights. And I know our heifers will calve an 85 lb calf on their own, although I'd prefer a bit smaller.

I agree completely!! Several of our cows were out of first calf heifers, and it has not affected their ability to raise a great calf. For us, the first calf is never a throw away, just sometimes a little smaller at weaning. They almost always catch up to their contemporaries by the time they are yearlings.

 

[Taurus]

I agree with Chris and Fire Sweep Ranch. My heifers' calves do not looks like they were out of heifers. I kept heifers out of heifers and never had any problems with them. It does make senses to using an ideal bull for your heifers and they will have better calves instead of using that unproven inferior bull. Better than wasted a year on the heifers.

 

[Nesikep]

Well, I would say that unless you have exceptional heifers, most of their heifer calves are going to have to be pushed hard to catch up with a heifer from a mature cow, and that you can probably buy heifer calves that are going to be in better shape... This of course depends a lot on how much feed you can throw at them. I have a heifer cow with a heifer calf this year, and I must say I think she looks quite nice as far as build.. but she's about 150 lbs off the mark for weight, which means she's going to get pushed around more at the feed trough... The problem gets compounded once they have a calf sucking on them and they need to breed back in their 2nd year... I have one heifer cow who is raising the biggest calf of the first timers, and she was in fine shape in spring and has been sucked dry, and she's on good pasture as well... if she hadn't been in excellent shape there'd just be nothing left of her.

I personally would say use this bull on these heifers, despite being unproven, "chances are" he's going to have good birth weights that they can handle, and give yourself time to look at a LOT of different bulls and really pick one that's going to do what you want... the price of butcher bulls is close to $1/lb here, so by having him gain some weight you aren't losing out there. I can't remember where it was posted, but Hillsdown posted a picture of a Gelbvieh bull that was really nice.

I wouldn't worry about purebred/crossbred for now either.... you have purebred? stay with it and for the next bull, if you want crossbred cows, pick a different breed and raise your own crossbred heifers... Who was it who said "It's not the destination that matters, but the journey"? You may not make as much money if the calves are a bit lighter, but for 4 head, it's not going to make or break you... you're going to learn, and you may well change your mind several times about the direction you want your breeding to go.

 

[u4411clb]

Dans ses écrits, un sage Italien
Dit que le mieux est l'ennemi du bien.

Written by Voltaire in 1772

Loosely translated "Never let the perfect be the enemy of the good."

Yes the perfect scenario is probably to have a field full of half sister crossbred cows AI'd to the same bull and using half brothers to do the cleanup. But until most of us get there we will have some purebred cows and some cows that have more than 2 breeds in them or may breed a purebred cow of one breed to a bull of the same breed so what. No offense to the professor who got you all worked up but this is the real world and real world dollars. It is nice to hear what we should strive for but allot of times it is not pratical. And if you are in this as a hobby that you want to make money or at least break even in keep your purebred heifers don't trade them in and breed them and don't worry about trying to keep their first calf as a replacement unless you have a feed bucket and feed bill money. I always would like to see what a cow can do more than one time before I start putting her offspring in my herd for the next 20 years. Get a live calf get it to the sale barn castrated and wormed and fly tagged is a good start for you. (Mean no offense by that last sentence). We will get you into the theory of Lancaster and embryo transferring next year.