This one's for Nesikep

[TexasBred]

Not intending to take this further into a religious discussion, but feel it necessary to say that you are correct in your assessment that just because someone goes to church every week or even every time the door is open, doesn't make them a good person. Likewise the fact that someone doesn't go to church does not mean that they are not a good person. It is what is in each individuals heart that matters. We will all be held accountable for what is in our hearts and the decisions that we do or don't make. If a person's heart is truly invested in their faith, then they should ideally strive to live that example, by showing kindness, love, honesty and understanding.

Pretty sure I've mentioned on here a couple of times that I've got an old uncle (95) that claims to be an athiest. Don't know if I've ever seen him in a church but for a funeral maybe. But if I had a choice for a mentor and and example for any of my kids it would be him. He lives the teachings of Jesus and doesn't even know it. I know others that have reserved seats in church buildings that reprobates once the think they have fulfilled their Sunday obligation.

 

[Nesikep]

Not intending to take this further into a religious discussion, but feel it necessary to say that you are correct in your assessment that just because someone goes to church every week or even every time the door is open, doesn't make them a good person. Likewise the fact that someone doesn't go to church does not mean that they are not a good person. It is what is in each individuals heart that matters. We will all be held accountable for what is in our hearts and the decisions that we do or don't make. If a person's heart is truly invested in their faith, then they should ideally strive to live that example, by showing kindness, love, honesty and understanding.

Pretty sure I've mentioned on here a couple of times that I've got an old uncle (95) that claims to be an athiest. Don't know if I've ever seen him in a church but for a funeral maybe. But if I had a choice for a mentor and and example for any of my kids it would be him. He lives the teachings of Jesus and doesn't even know it. I know others that have reserved seats in church buildings that reprobates once the think they have fulfilled their Sunday obligation.

It just happens to be that some of my best friends that have passed away now were perhaps atheist, or agnostic, either way, I had never heard of them refer to anything religious. In my life I strive to be as generous as they were to me.

 

[boondocks]

Not intending to take this further into a religious discussion, but feel it necessary to say that you are correct in your assessment that just because someone goes to church every week or even every time the door is open, doesn't make them a good person. Likewise the fact that someone doesn't go to church does not mean that they are not a good person. It is what is in each individuals heart that matters. We will all be held accountable for what is in our hearts and the decisions that we do or don't make. If a person's heart is truly invested in their faith, then they should ideally strive to live that example, by showing kindness, love, honesty and understanding.

You raise good points that are applicable to the kneeling debate. Does not their intent matter? Does not body language matter? Many (maybe most?) (including Kapernick) are devout Christians. They are kneeling in a penitent pose, of supplication. Indeed, the stance is very similar to that taken by Tebow when he routinely dropped to his knee. In interviews they have said that they love their country, and want it to do better, for police to stop being trigger-happy (something many, if not most of us, on here have agreed is a problem).

It is not a militant "f u" stance. Their fists aren't raised, their backs are not turned. They want their country to live up to its ideals. Kneeling, in a humble way. I really don't see any disrespect. I have seen much more disrespectful behavior. (Hoods and tiki torches, worn and carried by people protesting in FAVOR of the people who took up ARMS against that same flag!)

And I think it's just ridiculous to say that the people kneeling don't know why they're doing it. :roll:

 

[Ky hills]

Not intending to take this further into a religious discussion, but feel it necessary to say that you are correct in your assessment that just because someone goes to church every week or even every time the door is open, doesn't make them a good person. Likewise the fact that someone doesn't go to church does not mean that they are not a good person. It is what is in each individuals heart that matters. We will all be held accountable for what is in our hearts and the decisions that we do or don't make. If a person's heart is truly invested in their faith, then they should ideally strive to live that example, by showing kindness, love, honesty and understanding.

You raise good points that are applicable to the kneeling debate. Does not their intent matter? Does not body language matter? Many (maybe most?) (including Kapernick) are devout Christians. They are kneeling in a penitent pose, of supplication. Indeed, the stance is very similar to that taken by Tebow when he routinely dropped to his knee. In interviews they have said that they love their country, and want it to do better, for police to stop being trigger-happy (something many, if not most of us, on here have agreed is a problem).

It is not a militant "f u" stance. Their fists aren't raised, their backs are not turned. They want their country to live up to its ideals. Kneeling, in a humble way. I really don't see any disrespect. I have seen much more disrespectful behavior. (Hoods and tiki torches, worn and carried by people protesting in FAVOR of the people who took up ARMS against that same flag!)

And I think it's just ridiculous to say that the people kneeling don't know why they're doing it. :roll:

I have to admit that I must be living under a rock, because I really haven't followed the stories abut the kneeling and know nothing about the NFL.
I probably have shared on this open forum that I have been taking a lead role at a small country church since our Pastor retired, until they can find another. I don't consider myself a preacher, or even a layman, just one who is studying and sharing what I understand. I have learned in life to take folks at their word, until you have reason not to. As to the kneeling, I suppose their intent does matter, as would body language, but I do feel that a different avenue of protest would be better. I nor any other person has the right to judge their claims of spirituality. I have seen injustices in several forms, and acknowledge that it does exist. However, I also know that I love this country and would not want to live this life anywhere else. Even with the reality that injustice occurs, this is still a great country. I can think of a phrase that fits this situation, United We Stand. I really don't see this as history making for the better like the powerful statements made by Rosa Parks, or Martin Luther King Jr.

 

[boondocks]

I have to admit that I must be living under a rock, because I really haven't followed the stories abut the kneeling and know nothing about the NFL.
I probably have shared on this open forum that I have been taking a lead role at a small country church since our Pastor retired, until they can find another. I don't consider myself a preacher, or even a layman, just one who is studying and sharing what I understand. I have learned in life to take folks at their word, until you have reason not to. As to the kneeling, I suppose their intent does matter, as would body language, but I do feel that a different avenue of protest would be better. I nor any other person has the right to judge their claims of spirituality. I have seen injustices in several forms, and acknowledge that it does exist. However, I also know that I love this country and would not want to live this life anywhere else. Even with the reality that injustice occurs, this is still a great country. I can think of a phrase that fits this situation, United We Stand. I really don't see this as history making for the better like the powerful statements made by Rosa Parks, or Martin Luther King Jr.

On the contrary. This is exactly in keeping with the civil right's movement's actions of passive resistance. MLK (a preacher as well, of course) knew that (as with Gandhi) peaceful protests were the most effective. Famous picture of him kneeling: http://time.com/4955717/trump-protests- ... -kneeling/

Background: Kaepernick was troubled by police shootings and had initially remained seated during the anthem. He was then speaking with Nate Boyer, a Green Beret from Texas, who explained to him how it made him feel and suggested he kneel to express his concerns instead:
"Prior to the start of the 2016 NFL regular season, Kaepernick and Boyer met to discuss the anthem protest. As a result of that meeting, Kaepernick stopped sitting on the bench during the anthem. Instead, he adopted a new, but now well-known, gesture: taking a knee as most of his teammates stood alongside him. One of Kaepernick's teammates, safety Eric Reid, joined him in kneeling during the anthem. In an op-ed for the New York Times published Monday afternoon, Reid explained that Boyer changed his and Kaepernick's minds about the specific pose used in protest. "We chose to kneel because it's a respectful gesture," Reid wrote. "I remember thinking our posture was like a flag flown at half-mast to mark a tragedy."

Dropping to one knee, in most settings, is seen as a respectful gesture. In religions around the world, people kneel during prayer; it's widely considered a symbol of reverence in almost any setting—except when it has happened during the national anthem at a sporting event in the past year. When people, including the president, declare that players who take a knee during the anthem are disrespecting the troops, the flag, or the country, they're speaking out against a gesture that a Green Beret helped popularize." https://www.texasmonthly.com/the-daily- ... est-kneel/

 

[ChrisB]

Some really good posts on here by many people but a few in particular by CallMeFence, Ky Hills, and Boondocks stood out to me. Thanks!

 

[greybeard]

"A U.S. Military Academy graduate who posed with a sign reading "Communism will win" and posted pro-Colin Kaepernick messages on social media is now being ripped by the former Democratic congressman who helped him get into the prestigious school.

Ex-Rep. Jason Altmire of Pennsylvania, who served from 2007 to 2013, told The Daily Caller that Second Lt. Spenser Rapone – who is now the focus of an Army investigation – has let him down.

"Several years ago, I met Spenser Rapone when he was a high school student seeking an appointment to West Point," Altmire said. "At the time, he was an outstanding, well-rounded student who came from a good family. I have not been in touch with him in the years since the appointment, and I was shocked and extremely disappointed in the recent reports of his indefensible actions."
http://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army ... r-uniform/

 

[Workinonit Farm]

:shock:

Wow.

 

[Ky hills]

I have to admit that I must be living under a rock, because I really haven't followed the stories abut the kneeling and know nothing about the NFL.
I probably have shared on this open forum that I have been taking a lead role at a small country church since our Pastor retired, until they can find another. I don't consider myself a preacher, or even a layman, just one who is studying and sharing what I understand. I have learned in life to take folks at their word, until you have reason not to. As to the kneeling, I suppose their intent does matter, as would body language, but I do feel that a different avenue of protest would be better. I nor any other person has the right to judge their claims of spirituality. I have seen injustices in several forms, and acknowledge that it does exist. However, I also know that I love this country and would not want to live this life anywhere else. Even with the reality that injustice occurs, this is still a great country. I can think of a phrase that fits this situation, United We Stand. I really don't see this as history making for the better like the powerful statements made by Rosa Parks, or Martin Luther King Jr.

On the contrary. This is exactly in keeping with the civil right's movement's actions of passive resistance. MLK (a preacher as well, of course) knew that (as with Gandhi) peaceful protests were the most effective. Famous picture of him kneeling: http://time.com/4955717/trump-protests- ... -kneeling/

Background: Kaepernick was troubled by police shootings and had initially remained seated during the anthem. He was then speaking with Nate Boyer, a Green Beret from Texas, who explained to him how it made him feel and suggested he kneel to express his concerns instead:
"Prior to the start of the 2016 NFL regular season, Kaepernick and Boyer met to discuss the anthem protest. As a result of that meeting, Kaepernick stopped sitting on the bench during the anthem. Instead, he adopted a new, but now well-known, gesture: taking a knee as most of his teammates stood alongside him. One of Kaepernick's teammates, safety Eric Reid, joined him in kneeling during the anthem. In an op-ed for the New York Times published Monday afternoon, Reid explained that Boyer changed his and Kaepernick's minds about the specific pose used in protest. "We chose to kneel because it's a respectful gesture," Reid wrote. "I remember thinking our posture was like a flag flown at half-mast to mark a tragedy."

Dropping to one knee, in most settings, is seen as a respectful gesture. In religions around the world, people kneel during prayer; it's widely considered a symbol of reverence in almost any setting—except when it has happened during the national anthem at a sporting event in the past year. When people, including the president, declare that players who take a knee during the anthem are disrespecting the troops, the flag, or the country, they're speaking out against a gesture that a Green Beret helped popularize." https://www.texasmonthly.com/the-daily- ... est-kneel/

I can see your point, that they may indeed be trying to remain respectful by kneeling and it is a peaceful act. My feeling is though that in the days of Rosa Parks, she lived in a very different time period in our history. She was an individual should have been treated with the same respect as anyone else, but she did not have that luxury when she took a stand by remaining seated. Our former pastor's father pastored a church close to the church where MLK's father preached and I have heard him quote many times some of MLK Jr's speech, he described it as having seen over the mountain, even he may never get there himself. He was aware of the dangers of the world he lived in but he had faith that it would get better. There are still injustices and discrimination does still exist, but not as open as once was. My point is that these NFL folks are basically celebrities in their status, and should have many opportunities and avenues to express their views. Many young children and teens look to them as role models, and I think they have an awesome responsibility should they choose to accept it of being those positive role models. I feel that since everything seems so divided that we all need to find common ground and standing for the anthem is a demonstration of that. I often think if we all could just do our parts to show kindness then things would be a lot better.

 

[callmefence]

Kneeling may be a sign of respect in some cases. But it is definitely not do during the national anthem.
To compare what people in other countries do during prayer to what Americans do during the anthem is .......

 

[TexasBred]

"A U.S. Military Academy graduate who posed with a sign reading "Communism will win" and posted pro-Colin Kaepernick messages on social media is now being ripped by the former Democratic congressman who helped him get into the prestigious school.

Ex-Rep. Jason Altmire of Pennsylvania, who served from 2007 to 2013, told The Daily Caller that Second Lt. Spenser Rapone – who is now the focus of an Army investigation – has let him down.

"Several years ago, I met Spenser Rapone when he was a high school student seeking an appointment to West Point," Altmire said. "At the time, he was an outstanding, well-rounded student who came from a good family. I have not been in touch with him in the years since the appointment, and I was shocked and extremely disappointed in the recent reports of his indefensible actions."
http://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army ... r-uniform/

What they do doesn't concern me as much as "WHY" they do it.

 

[Ky hills]

Kneeling may be a sign of respect in some cases. But it is definitely not do during the national anthem.
To compare what people in other countries do during prayer to what Americans do during the anthem is .......

I just want to clarify my previous statement. I was saying that the individuals doin the kneeling may themselves think it is still respectful, but I personally do not think it is respectful during the anthem. I think they should find another time and avenue to peacefully protest.

 

[boondocks]

Kneeling may be a sign of respect in some cases. But it is definitely not do during the national anthem.
To compare what people in other countries do during prayer to what Americans do during the anthem is .......

I just want to clarify my previous statement. I was saying that the individuals doin the kneeling may themselves think it is still respectful, but I personally do not think it is respectful during the anthem. I think they should find another time and avenue to peacefully protest.

I will respectfully agree to disagree with you on this one, Kyhills. I think a peaceful protest in a penitent position may be a good way to show young people what freedom of speech really is: sometimes it's hard. And it's when it's tough that it counts the most. And I really feel that as a white person, I need to be careful about telling people whose shoes I have not walked in what is an appropriate way to express their disappointment with police shootings, especially when the method was chosen in consultation with a Green Beret and is nonviolent.
I love the flag. But I worship the Constitution....
[and I appreciate the civil discussion] :tiphat:

 

[Ky hills]

Kneeling may be a sign of respect in some cases. But it is definitely not do during the national anthem.
To compare what people in other countries do during prayer to what Americans do during the anthem is .......

I just want to clarify my previous statement. I was saying that the individuals doin the kneeling may themselves think it is still respectful, but I personally do not think it is respectful during the anthem. I think they should find another time and avenue to peacefully protest.

I will respectfully agree to disagree with you on this one, Kyhills. I think a peaceful protest in a penitent position may be a good way to show young people what freedom of speech really is: sometimes it's hard. And it's when it's tough that it counts the most. And I really feel that as a white person, I need to be careful about telling people whose shoes I have not walked in what is an appropriate way to express their disappointment with police shootings, especially when the method was chosen in consultation with a Green Beret and is nonviolent.
I love the flag. But I worship the Constitution....
[and I appreciate the civil discussion] :tiphat:

Thank you, Boondocks, I appreciate it very much when folks can agree to disagree respectfully. I guess you could say I respect that :tiphat: . I feel the need to clarify that I am in no way personally telling these individuals anything, what I say matters not, in the grand scheme of things. I am just stating my opinions about how I perceive the situation. I can disagree with their chosen method, and still respect the people. Here in rural KY, just this summer. there have been several officer involved shootings involving white individuals. Here I would speculate most crime is committed by white individuals and most likely drug related. I have never pretended to have walked in another person's shoes, but I do feel that I can understand some things. I have had some experiences in life that have given me at least bit of what folks of other ethnicities experience. I have no idea what my complete ethnic background is because my family hid part of it, and passionately claimed their Irish heritage. I have been mistaken for being Mexican by several folks, and in most of those instances it was not a nice reference. I have been given Hispanic names, and even told to go home, by some fine upstanding young men. My wife is of Hispanic/Native American decent, and a few weeks ago, her mother and step dad came to visit. When they arrived at our church, some of the children were very vocal about "Indians" being there. I was very discouraged when I heard some say some bad things about them. I quickly tried to use that as a teachable moment, telling them that we are all the same. Forgive me for all of the details, and thanks again for the respectful discussion. I just wish that folks could see my heart and that is hard to show typing on a computer.

 

[boondocks]

Thank you, Boondocks, I appreciate it very much when folks can agree to disagree respectfully. I guess you could say I respect that :tiphat: . I feel the need to clarify that I am in no way personally telling these individuals anything, what I say matters not, in the grand scheme of things. I am just stating my opinions about how I perceive the situation. I can disagree with their chosen method, and still respect the people. Here in rural KY, just this summer. there have been several officer involved shootings involving white individuals. Here I would speculate most crime is committed by white individuals and most likely drug related. I have never pretended to have walked in another person's shoes, but I do feel that I can understand some things. I have had some experiences in life that have given me at least bit of what folks of other ethnicities experience. I have no idea what my complete ethnic background is because my family hid part of it, and passionately claimed their Irish heritage. I have been mistaken for being Mexican by several folks, and in most of those instances it was not a nice reference. I have been given Hispanic names, and even told to go home, by some fine upstanding young men. My wife is of Hispanic/Native American decent, and a few weeks ago, her mother and step dad came to visit. When they arrived at our church, some of the children were very vocal about "Indians" being there. I was very discouraged when I heard some say some bad things about them. I quickly tried to use that as a teachable moment, telling them that we are all the same. Forgive me for all of the details, and thanks again for the respectful discussion. I just wish that folks could see my heart and that is hard to show typing on a computer.

Glad you were able to use it as a teachable moment. One of my very best friends (of 30 years) is black. A judge with a husband with an MBA and 3 beautiful kids. When they moved to the 'burbs (into a custom built 3 story house), they joined a new church. It was a predominantly white area. Their very first day at church, they had multiple groups of people stop to say hi and ask them straightaway whether they had moved into the XYZ Homes (the local "projects"). On the one hand, these good people meant no harm. On the other hand.... :shock:
Sometimes we all need a teachable moment, myself very much included....The trick is to be humble enough to see it when it comes around.