this may turn some heads

[Tman]

Frankie,

Nice research and well cited. I have been watching and learning from this thread for a while. I run Brangus and Angus and they were selected purley on market demand for my area. I had no idea I was participating in an alledged fraud on the American People. Seems to me if the consumer was concerned they would research the topic much as Frankie and/or guest have done. I suppose that even if the data stacked to the sky against the angus influenced programs the consumer still says different. When the consumer changes their minds then I will change my herd (Never happen). Till then I am runnining Angus influenced beef.

Guest you have prepared some interesting and thought provoking research as well and I think we are all appreciative of your bringing this topic to the boards. I am sorry that America is a capitalist country, or maybe I am not but that is how the system works. The majority of America is content with grabbing whatever they can reach at the grocery store, going home and having a guilt free steak dinner for not having killed an animal, it is much too distasteful for their refined palates. I believe that if you eat meat, you killed an animal, if you drive a car, you drilled for oil in Alaska, and if you turn on a light switch, then you strip mined for coal. You speak of an accountable consumer that is a victim of a crime, I think they prefer to ingnore their own indescretions and allow others to do the dirty work required for their current lifestyles. I believe you could personally call every single meat eating American and tell them what about this thread and they simply would not care. " You mean Beef comes from a Cow ?" You seem to be a highly principled individual which is commendable and extremely admirable. Too bad the collective of the American consumer has principles in other areas.

Enjoyed the thread and please sign in, you should get credit for your thoughts as they have extreme value. Conflict is not a bad thing for it brings about thought, change and enlightenment.


Kindest Regards,

TMan

Do what you feel in your heart to be right - for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
Eleanor Roosevelt (1884 - 1962)

 

[Anonymous]

Frankie,

Nice research and well cited. I have been watching and learning from this thread for a while. I run Brangus and Angus and they were selected purley on market demand for my area. I had no idea I was participating in an alledged fraud on the American People. Seems to me if the consumer was concerned they would research the topic much as Frankie and/or guest have done. I suppose that even if the data stacked to the sky against the angus influenced programs the consumer still says different. When the consumer changes their minds then I will change my herd (Never happen). Till then I am runnining Angus influenced beef.

Guest you have prepared some interesting and thought provoking research as well and I think we are all appreciative of your bringing this topic to the boards. I am sorry that America is a capitalist country, or maybe I am not but that is how the system works. The majority of America is content with grabbing whatever they can reach at the grocery store, going home and having a guilt free steak dinner for not having killed an animal, it is much too distasteful for their refined palates. I believe that if you eat meat, you killed an animal, if you drive a car, you drilled for oil in Alaska, and if you turn on a light switch, then you strip mined for coal. You speak of an accountable consumer that is a victim of a crime, I think they prefer to ingnore their own indescretions and allow others to do the dirty work required for their current lifestyles. I believe you could personally call every single meat eating American and tell them what about this thread and they simply would not care. " You mean Beef comes from a Cow ?" You seem to be a highly principled individual which is commendable and extremely admirable. Too bad the collective of the American consumer has principles in other areas.

Enjoyed the thread and please sign in, you should get credit for your thoughts as they have extreme value. Conflict is not a bad thing for it brings about thought, change and enlightenment.


Kindest Regards,

TMan

Do what you feel in your heart to be right - for you'll be criticized anyway. You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't.
Eleanor Roosevelt (1884 - 1962)

tman

i appreciate your input about principles kindness and such. what we have been discussing here is the responsibility of the producer and cab pertaining to ethics and doing the right thing.

it is my feeeling tha cab should be telling the consumer the facts not the consumer investigating cab. further more i think that when one speaks of ethics even burger king hardees and the places that sell cab beef should have done their own research but to them it is all about the allmighty dollar.

in the bible JESUS said the love of money is the root of all evil! not money itself but the love of it!

i see that you are an organ transplant specialist. i would hope that if you make a mistake if you are a physician that you would be willing to tell the patient regardless of the out come.

i would like to relate to a couple of my own experiences.

in 1986 my wife became pregnant with our forth child. one night at work she passed out and lost all detectable blood pressure. she was rushed to the emergency room and they did an ultra sound and told her the baby was fine and ordered her to complete bed rest.

about a week later i heard her scream about 1:15am and ran to check on her she was white as a ghost and as cold and clamy as could be. my children and i loaded her up and rushed her to the emergency room about 8 minutes away

they called the doctor and rushed her into surgery. it was discovered she was bleeding internally from an etopic pregnacy. they had to give her three units of blood some six weeks later the obgyns office wished to see both of us the doctor sat us down and advised us that my wife of 18 years had a baby in the womb and one in the tube and when they opened her up for surgery that they killed the one in the womb.

when we began to discuss this with freinds and family they all began to say sue the doctors as they killed your child by their negligence.

my thoughts and response to them was as follows. the doctor was awackened in the middle of the night and rushed to the hospital and saved my wifes life. he had no time to check or do any tests or to review notes.

i had been married to her for 18 years we never knew this baby and yes we did greive over the loss of the child. but gave thanks more than any thing for the life he saved. we are now on our 36th year of marriage.

i am still thankfull to that doctor one for saving her life. and secondly for his honesty and integrity to come forward with the truth.

was it our place to investigate his care of my wife or his to be honest? i say the latter works best any time i will bet that doctor gets a good nights sleep from a clear conscience.

the second thing i would like to elaborate on is a recent personal experience. my wife and i have a herd of about 30 registered animals we were just fixing to sell some yearling heifers and a cow by private treaty to a producer.

for about two months we have had a cow that has withered away we took her to two different vets and they checked her out and said they could find nothing wrong with her just take home and keep feeding her was their recomendation.

well we decided to call another vet and he advised us to bring her in and have her and her calf tested for johne's. well she was positive and her calf was suspect. when the vet called my wife with the resuts she began to cry and lose it after she settled down we began to discuss what we must do. for the record we own some high dollar cows and all three vets are large animal vets.

we decided as follows that until we go two years with out a positive test or a questionable suspect we will sell no animals to a producer.

2nd that there will be no interaction between our animals and any one elses such as tractor to anothers farm or truck to anothers farm.

3rd we bought our herd from a man and woman who have sold much seed stock to many producers. we are asking them to inform all the producers that they have sold animals to of the positive tests for johnes from their former herd. and to advise these producers to get their herds tested.

you see we have only owned this herd for six months and yes we have since found out that they had a suspect animal in 2002. we are not just concerned about our welfare but the welfare of the other producers who could be harmed. if these people chose not to inform the ones they have sold animals to of the above we will do it for them.

i called the vet at the university that performed the test for the state. he advised me of the following that johnes is a major problem that is just before exploding in the future in the beef and dairy industry. that we will be facing mandatory testing and mandatory culling in the near future. and many states pay for or do the testing they will not quarinteen? your herd but you will be prohibited from selling any positive animal or suspect for any thing other than a feed lot or a killer.

a few facts about johnes testing an animal under two will rarely show up as suspect or positive unless it is from a hotly infected animal. a real warning sign a calf that is smaller at birth than the norm of the herd and does not grow off like the rest of the calves. an animal can be a strong positive and not waste away. stress sets it in order much of the time.

4th we have chosen to have our herd tested every six months untill we eradicte this disease from our herd.

lastly i had to rent a trailer from the local feed association to carry these two suspect animals to be tested. prior to getting the positive results back
we chose to pressure down the trailer for hours and to bleach it exstensivley so if our animals were positive we would harm no one else.

i grew up in a time when you could call a banker and tell him you were wanting to buy something and he would tell you go get it and write a check for it and come in when you had time to sign the note.

my dad was an alcoholic but his saying was your word is your bond. i have brought my three children up by trying to teach them priciples are not worth having if you don't practice them. and right will wrong no one

so if cab has nothing to hide then their taking the responsibility to inform the public of the cab criteria will harm no one!!!

thanks for the dialouge

my best to you and yours.

 

[la4angus]

Great Post; Tman. Well said as usual on your part.
Thanks.

 

[Anonymous]

Great Post; Tman. Well said as usual on your part.
Thanks.

this posts started out with this will turn some heads. the initial dialouge pertained to the normandy breed what say any one any dialouge about this breed??? not breed bashing but dialouge!

 

[Frankie]

"what we have been discussing here is the responsibility of the producer and cab pertaining to ethics and doing the right thing."

Part of what we've been discussing is about CAB. But you also challenged to me to show you why the Angus breed is so popular. No Angus-related links, you said. I showed you several University-run feed tests. I challenged you to show me a similar test of 100+ bulls of another breed that perform as well as Angus. After all my hard work, are you just going to ignore it?

I also asked for a link to the MARC study you keep citing that shows poor Angus performance. I still don't see that link. Are you ignoring that, too?

For this post:

"it is my feeeling tha cab should be telling the consumer the facts not the consumer investigating cab. further more i think that when one speaks of ethics even burger king hardees and the places that sell cab beef should have done their own research but to them it is all about the allmighty dollar."

You have the right to your "feeling." Just realize that your "feeling" is not the law. My "feeling" is that CAB set out a set of USDA-approved specifications. As long as the meat sold as CAB meets those specs, it's both legal and moral.

"so if cab has nothing to hide then their taking the responsibility to inform the public of the cab criteria will harm no one!!! "

And as I've said several times, CAB is not trying to "hide" anything. The specifications are on the website for anyone to look at.

And lastly, Hardees and Burger King are not selling Certified Angus Beef. They're selling "Angus" burgers. You'll need to talk to them about how they know it's Angus beef. The American Angus Association owns CAB, but they do not own the word "Angus".

 

[ollie]

Victor bred Herefords look anything like they might have some dairy?

only if they were miniature dairy. have you seen the size of most victors?

Too fine made to make it on my farm. I wouldn't care how well they milk.

 

[Anonymous]

"The Responsibility of the producer and CAB pertaining to ethics and doing the right thing." By which King's shoe do you measure a foot?

Someone pointed out that the CAB program was a successful marketing campaign. Who paid for the marketing and ethically whom is the advertiser obligated to? The producer who paid the dollar for marketing or the consumer who purchases the end product? Someone else mentioned "Do you really think you can lose weight by eating only Subway Sandwiches?" Seems relative and ethics is an extremely slippery slope. You have to be careful what you ask people to do because they will do it. I think the consumer has an obligation in the purchase beyond watching a commercial or reading a label.

If you go to Papua New Guinea you will find that when someone in the tribe passes away they are placed in a wooden cage and dried over an open fire with much celebration often members of the tribe will gleefully slice off strips of flesh and ingest them (Cannibalism). After days of celebration the bodies are dried out and the cages are then carried high into the hills and hung in the cliffs overlooking the village. It is believed that the elders of the community are watching over the village's actions and guide them in their decisions. The tribe fears poor choices or bad behavior, as it will anger the elders. Is this practice ethical? It is to the tribes of Papua New Guinea. It seems Barbaric to us but it depends on the group that you poll for your answer and the set of rules we judge it by.

You quote scripture "in the bible JESUS said the love of money is the root of all evil! Not money itself but the love of it!"

Christopher Columbus came across many tribes one of which was the Aztecs who practiced a form of cannibalism who ultimately fell to Cortez at Aztlan. The daughter of the Aztec King was captured and the King was told that if he filled three rooms with gold that the daughter would be safely returned. The entire tribe went to work and over a period of days the rooms were filled with gold, which was promptly sent to Spain (The greed you speak of!), the Aztecs were slain, the religious temples were destroyed and Catholic churches were built on their foundations. After all Cannibalism is an unacceptable practice and this tribe was barbaric in nature. Right ????

"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him (Jn. 6:55). It may seem abhorrent to the Christians of today that one of their most precious rituals actually has its roots in the cannibalistic sacrifice and consumption of their deity. Somehow incongruent with the fall of the Aztecs. Once again it would seem that ethics is somewhat malleable when crossing lines of culture, ethnicity, Religion and geographical boundaries. Not saying it is right, just saying it is a fact.

I am sorry for the loss that you and your wife have endured it is truly unfortunate. I agree that it was appropriate for the physician to be forward and honest about the outcome as he was sworn an oath "Above all does no harm". I also believe that when your wife entered the operating room that the physician was charged with saving your wife's life, which he accomplished. The outcome could have been much more devastating should you have lost them all, for this I am grateful and appreciative of your sense of fair play. It was a tough situation and you dealt with it head on.

Regarding the situation that you are in with your herd I find this extremely disturbing and admire your integrity, as I had mentioned I believe that you are a highly principled man and I would like to add that your children are lucky to have such a role model. I am new to the beef industry but wonder if the CAB programs' marketing is somewhat different than passing on johnes. I also wonder what would be acceptable along ethical lines in our community of selling your herd; perhaps you are taking on too much responsibility? I personally do not know, as I am new to the business but think you should poll the board on your options. On this line of discussion is there any <A TITLE="Click for more information about insurance" STYLE="text-decoration: none; border-bottom: medium solid green;" HREF="http://search.targetwords.com/u.search?x=5977|1||||insurance|AA1VDw">insurance</A> coverage for such a loss? Seems like a tough blow and I can certainly understand your tone.

Finally, yes I work in the highly controversial area of organ transplant. To some I am considered ghoul or grave robbers to others my practices are a <A TITLE="Click for more information about gift" STYLE="text-decoration: none; border-bottom: medium solid green;" HREF="http://search.targetwords.com/u.search?x=5977|1||||gifts|AA1VDw">gift</A>, the "Gift of Life". You see organ transplant is the ultimate form of cannibalism and to some an unethical practice for which I am certain I will be judged for one day. I know that my chosen profession offends some but I chose to put it on my profile for the world and everyone else to see much like my signature on every post.

Please poll the Board on what action would be acceptable in the cattle industry and hopefully there will be some options that you have not considered as of yet and appreciate your postings.

Kindest Regards,

 

[Tman]

Terribly Sorry, I forgot to log in. That last post was mine.

 

[Tman]

L4,

Thank you for the kind words. Is Guest really stuck with a non-producing herd for a couple of years ? Seems like a tough situation. :?

 

[la4angus]

I do not really know the quarantine period for cattle with Johnes.
I do know that it is becoming more prevalent in beef herds, basically spread by using dairy females as embryo recipients.
To my knowledge "Guest" is correct on his post about the quarantine period.
Posted is more info on Johnes Disease.
More info can be found on the newsletter http://www.mycattle.com.
It is a few newsletter.
I have found it very interesting with good information.

NEW PROGRAM TO REDUCE JOHNE'S DISEASE IN HERDS
A new three-stage program to help beef and dairy cattle producers control Johne's Disease within their herds has been developed jointly by the College of Agricultural Sciences and the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture. Penn State's role in the program is to provide educational materials for farmers and veterinarians and to provide training for both veterinarians and industry professionals.


Johne's Disease (pronounced yo-knees), a bacterial disease of cattle and other ruminants, is related to the bacterium causing tuberculosis. The disease has a long incubation period--one to five years--before signs of infection are obvious. Symptoms include weight loss, diarrhea, and decreased milk production in dairy cattle. "Once cattle contract the disease, it's incurable," says veterinary scientist Larry Hutchinson. "It's estimated that 20 to 40 percent of Pennsylvania's dairy herds have cattle with Johne's Disease."


"Beef cattle have it as well, but at a lower frequency," adds David Wolfgang, senior research associate in veterinary science. "Dairy herds are housed and managed in much closer proximity than beef cattle, which makes it easier for the Johne's Disease pathogen to spread."


The Pennsylvania Johne's Disease Program is a voluntary tool that can help producers identify whether their herds are infected and control or eliminate the disease. "If a producer does nothing to prevent the spread of Johne's Disease, the dairy operation will eventually decline in production," Wolfgang says. "There also may be other economic consequences, such as a lower price for culled cows and a decline in fertility."


The first step in the state program is the "30 Free" test. Producers can test any 30 adult animals in their herd for the disease with no laboratory fee, although veterinarians will charge a fee for drawing blood samples. "The test program does not obligate producers to do anything if their herd has animals with the disease," Hutchinson says. "Testing 30 animals will give large and small operations an idea of disease prevalence in the herd."


If testing proves the herd is not infected or has low prevalence of the disease, producers can enlist in the Voluntary Johne's Disease Status Program, which features four herd health levels that producers can use to keep their herds disease-free. "Producers can choose to move up to different levels or maintain their status in the same level," Hutchinson explains. "It depends on the farmer's economic and management goals. If you have a small operation and market embryos or bulls, you may want to move up your status. If you have a large operation and buy new cows, then you probably would prefer to maintain or improve status gradually."


The program's second level involves targeted testing for the herd, including all adult cows. The testing fees are reduced as long as farmers participate in the program. The third level of the program tests more cows and uses a more accurate fecal culture test. In the fourth level, herds that test free of Johne's Disease are certified, and producers return to periodic blood tests.


Producers with infected herds can enter the Voluntary Johne's Disease Management Program in conjunction with their veterinarians. The producer and veterinarian are required to write a herd management plan and meet goals to improve herd health. "This program is completely voluntary and does not have strict timetables to cull infected animals or eradicate the disease if your herd is infected," Hutchinson says.


The most important part of the program is writing and following a management plan in which the producer and veterinarian assess management areas to determine where the herd is most at risk for infection. "The management plan will identify areas of greatest risk of disease transmission," Wolfgang says. "The producer and veterinarian will work to reduce transmission in those locations at a pace comfortable to the farmer."


Farmers and other interested professionals can get educational material and information on the Johne's Disease program at all Penn State Cooperative Extension county offices. For more information, contact Larry Hutchinson at (814) 863-2160 or David Wolfgang at (814) 863-5849.



--John Wall

 

[Anonymous]

I do not really know the quarantine period for cattle with Johannes.
I do know that it is becoming more prevalent in beef herds, basically spread by using dairy females as embryo recipients.
To my knowledge "Guest" is correct on his post about the quarantine period.
Posted is more info on Johannes Disease.
More info can be found on the newsletter http://www.mycattle.com.
It is a few newsletter.
I have found it very interesting with good information.

NEW PROGRAM TO REDUCE JOHNE'S DISEASE IN HERDS
A new three-stage program to help beef and dairy cattle producers control Johne's Disease within their herds has been developed jointly by the College of Agricultural Sciences and the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture. Penn State's role in the program is to provide educational materials for farmers and veterinarians and to provide training for both veterinarians and industry professionals.


Johne's Disease (pronounced yo-knees), a bacterial disease of cattle and other ruminants, is related to the bacterium causing tuberculosis. The disease has a long incubation period--one to five years--before signs of infection are obvious. Symptoms include weight loss, diarrhea, and decreased milk production in dairy cattle. "Once cattle contract the disease, it's incurable," says veterinary scientist Larry Hutchinson. "It's estimated that 20 to 40 percent of Pennsylvania's dairy herds have cattle with Johne's Disease."


"Beef cattle have it as well, but at a lower frequency," adds David Wolfgang, senior research associate in veterinary science. "Dairy herds are housed and managed in much closer proximity than beef cattle, which makes it easier for the Johne's Disease pathogen to spread."


The Pennsylvania Johne's Disease Program is a voluntary tool that can help producers identify whether their herds are infected and control or eliminate the disease. "If a producer does nothing to prevent the spread of Johne's Disease, the dairy operation will eventually decline in production," Wolfgang says. "There also may be other economic consequences, such as a lower price for culled cows and a decline in fertility."


The first step in the state program is the "30 Free" test. Producers can test any 30 adult animals in their herd for the disease with no laboratory fee, although veterinarians will charge a fee for drawing blood samples. "The test program does not obligate producers to do anything if their herd has animals with the disease," Hutchinson says. "Testing 30 animals will give large and small operations an idea of disease prevalence in the herd."


If testing proves the herd is not infected or has low prevalence of the disease, producers can enlist in the Voluntary Johne's Disease Status Program, which features four herd health levels that producers can use to keep their herds disease-free. "Producers can choose to move up to different levels or maintain their status in the same level," Hutchinson explains. "It depends on the farmer's economic and management goals. If you have a small operation and market embryos or bulls, you may want to move up your status. If you have a large operation and buy new cows, then you probably would prefer to maintain or improve status gradually."


The program's second level involves targeted testing for the herd, including all adult cows. The testing fees are reduced as long as farmers participate in the program. The third level of the program tests more cows and uses a more accurate fecal culture test. In the fourth level, herds that test free of Johne's Disease are certified, and producers return to periodic blood tests.


Producers with infected herds can enter the Voluntary Johne's Disease Management Program in conjunction with their veterinarians. The producer and veterinarian are required to write a herd management plan and meet goals to improve herd health. "This program is completely voluntary and does not have strict timetables to cull infected animals or eradicate the disease if your herd is infected," Hutchinson says.


The most important part of the program is writing and following a management plan in which the producer and veterinarian assess management areas to determine where the herd is most at risk for infection. "The management plan will identify areas of greatest risk of disease transmission," Wolfgang says. "The producer and veterinarian will work to reduce transmission in those locations at a pace comfortable to the farmer."


Farmers and other interested professionals can get educational material and information on the Johne's Disease program at all Penn State Cooperative Extension county offices. For more information, contact Larry Hutchinson at (814) 863-2160 or David Wolfgang at (814) 863-5849.



--John Wall

la4angus

thanks much for a very informitave and great post. please watch for a post {for the good of this meesage board}

 

[Anonymous]

I do not really know the quarantine period for cattle with Johannes.
I do know that it is becoming more prevalent in beef herds, basically spread by using dairy females as embryo recipients.
To my knowledge "Guest" is correct on his post about the quarantine period.
Posted is more info on Johannes Disease.
More info can be found on the newsletter http://www.mycattle.com.
It is a few newsletter.
I have found it very interesting with good information.

NEW PROGRAM TO REDUCE JOHNE'S DISEASE IN HERDS
A new three-stage program to help beef and dairy cattle producers control Johne's Disease within their herds has been developed jointly by the College of Agricultural Sciences and the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture. Penn State's role in the program is to provide educational materials for farmers and veterinarians and to provide training for both veterinarians and industry professionals.


Johne's Disease (pronounced yo-knees), a bacterial disease of cattle and other ruminants, is related to the bacterium causing tuberculosis. The disease has a long incubation period--one to five years--before signs of infection are obvious. Symptoms include weight loss, diarrhea, and decreased milk production in dairy cattle. "Once cattle contract the disease, it's incurable," says veterinary scientist Larry Hutchinson. "It's estimated that 20 to 40 percent of Pennsylvania's dairy herds have cattle with Johne's Disease."


"Beef cattle have it as well, but at a lower frequency," adds David Wolfgang, senior research associate in veterinary science. "Dairy herds are housed and managed in much closer proximity than beef cattle, which makes it easier for the Johne's Disease pathogen to spread."


The Pennsylvania Johne's Disease Program is a voluntary tool that can help producers identify whether their herds are infected and control or eliminate the disease. "If a producer does nothing to prevent the spread of Johne's Disease, the dairy operation will eventually decline in production," Wolfgang says. "There also may be other economic consequences, such as a lower price for culled cows and a decline in fertility."


The first step in the state program is the "30 Free" test. Producers can test any 30 adult animals in their herd for the disease with no laboratory fee, although veterinarians will charge a fee for drawing blood samples. "The test program does not obligate producers to do anything if their herd has animals with the disease," Hutchinson says. "Testing 30 animals will give large and small operations an idea of disease prevalence in the herd."


If testing proves the herd is not infected or has low prevalence of the disease, producers can enlist in the Voluntary Johne's Disease Status Program, which features four herd health levels that producers can use to keep their herds disease-free. "Producers can choose to move up to different levels or maintain their status in the same level," Hutchinson explains. "It depends on the farmer's economic and management goals. If you have a small operation and market embryos or bulls, you may want to move up your status. If you have a large operation and buy new cows, then you probably would prefer to maintain or improve status gradually."


The program's second level involves targeted testing for the herd, including all adult cows. The testing fees are reduced as long as farmers participate in the program. The third level of the program tests more cows and uses a more accurate fecal culture test. In the fourth level, herds that test free of Johne's Disease are certified, and producers return to periodic blood tests.


Producers with infected herds can enter the Voluntary Johne's Disease Management Program in conjunction with their veterinarians. The producer and veterinarian are required to write a herd management plan and meet goals to improve herd health. "This program is completely voluntary and does not have strict timetables to cull infected animals or eradicate the disease if your herd is infected," Hutchinson says.


The most important part of the program is writing and following a management plan in which the producer and veterinarian assess management areas to determine where the herd is most at risk for infection. "The management plan will identify areas of greatest risk of disease transmission," Wolfgang says. "The producer and veterinarian will work to reduce transmission in those locations at a pace comfortable to the farmer."


Farmers and other interested professionals can get educational material and information on the Johne's Disease program at all Penn State Cooperative Extension county offices. For more information, contact Larry Hutchinson at (814) 863-2160 or David Wolfgang at (814) 863-5849.



--John Wall

la4angus

thanks much for a very informitave and great post. please watch for a post {for the good of this meesage board}

sorry i ment message board

 

[Frankie]

Great Post; Tman. Well said as usual on your part.
Thanks.

this posts started out with this will turn some heads. the initial dialouge pertained to the normandy breed what say any one any dialouge about this breed??? not breed bashing but dialouge!

In my opinion, no breed is going to successfully market bulls to commercial cattlemen without reliable EPDs. Years ago when we bought our first Angus bull, we had to search for a bull with EPDs. There were lots of Angus bulls around, but not many with EPDs. When we sold our first bull at the test station, commercial guys were only interested in the BW EPD. At that sale today those same guys have a handfull of data, actual BW, WW, YW, EPDs, ultrasound, pedigree.... Most serious commercial cattlemen have learned what a great tool EPDs are and won't take the chance to buy a bull without them. At our test station sale, you'll occasionally you'll see a bull without EPDs sell and it takes a hit compared to similar bulls with a full set of EPDs. For what it's worth...

 

[beef]

John S:

What is the angus fraud you are referring to?

 

[Anonymous]

Fraud is an act of deception for monetary gain. The CAB program as it is currently structured meets that definition (as does the Certified Hereford program). As I don't have any information about the standards and the specifications of beef sold as "Angus" by some fast food chains and supermarkets, I can't say if they are frauds or not.

You can rationalize to any extent you like to meet your own ethical standards, just remember that when fraud is practiced, the person who is the victum of the fraudulent activity (the consumer) is much more likely to recognize the deception than the perpertrators of the fraud (CAB and participatinig producers).