this may turn some heads

[Anonymous]

Sure is nice that all of you who participate in one of the biggest consumer frauds ever, can make yourselves feel better through your weak attempts to justify cheating the people who buy your product.

Once again, let me say that I do not bash the American Angus Association and beating a dead horse means flogging an issue that is no longer relevant. Not at all the situation with CAB and/or some of the other Angus fraud programs. The issue is very alive and growing according to Frankie's own observations. It will not be resolved until the fraud is shut down. Maybe NY's Elliott Spitzer will have time to tackle it after he cleans up a few other cases of consumer fraud.

Keep on justifying your actions to mislead and cheat other people. I really wonder about anyone who would continue to purchase breeding stock from people who have publicly written that they think it is OK to cheat people.

 

[J+]

This may have been said before but everything black is not angus. But if you look at the sale barns and see anything that goes through the ring that is black everyone pays more because they think that it is angus. I have shorthorns and want to put a black bull on them so that the calves will bring more. I know that some of my calves are alot better then black ones that go through the ring but bring less. I think that if they are going to put Angus on the label, for the benefit of good angus cattle, they better know that it is Angus. It is good meat but if you think that what you are eating at Bk, hardees, etc. is true angus meat you are crazy! It is mostly mental with people. I had a steak at a friends house that they bought at the store that Black Angus labels were on the tag and it was awful. Of course lots of us don't have to worry about buying beef at the store anymore. It will catch up with the breed eventually, it always does. This business is a nasty cycle that is very volitile!

Just my 2 cents!

J+

 

[ollie]

John fraud would imply that consumers are buying it because they think that the Angus in cab makes it better . My whole post is stating that people are buying it because it is a good eating experience. I don't raise black angus cattle and 75% of my cows are red. That dosn't mean that I can't admire a successful marketing program. Do you think that that Walmart is really rolling back prices as implied ? Do you really think that short horns are really the milk breed? Are Ballancers really more than half bloods? Can you really loose weight eating at subway all the time. Get a grip man you can't actually believe everything you read!!!!!!

I think actual "fraud" would be selling something as CAB that didn't meet the CAB specs. Those specifications say nothing about the animal having a drop of Angus blood; the black color is proof of Angus influence. IMO, it's one of the smartest things the Angus Assn ever did; it's doubtful the packers, at that time, would have bought into a program that required proof of Angus blood. That would lay them open to lots of lawsuits and having to prove time and again that animals were Angus. But John doesn't care; he just wants to bash the Angus Assn.

As you know Angus isn't the only way to get black. Holsteins can be 51% black hided.

 

[Oldtimer]

Why in the world would you admire fraud???? I guess some would admire fraud when there is money to be made. Good luck. You can only continue the deception for so long. Luckily, because of all the jumping on the bandwagon, the angus fraud will be exposd sooner.

I think you should look at the standards to qualify as CAB- its a marketing tool- not fraud.

Now if you want fraud- look at what the US government and USDA do every day- marking all beef, imported or domestic, with the USDA stamp which gives the impression that it is a US product- Now that is deception. Most consumers think that because it has the USDA stamp its a US product- wrong, it could be imported from Timbuktu.
If USDA and the packer conglomerates can get away with that, do you really think you can do something with CAB's marketing tool?

 

[Frankie]

As you know Angus isn't the only way to get black. Holsteins can be 51% black hided.

The CAB specs disqualify cattle with dairy influence.

 

[Anonymous]

As you know Angus isn't the only way to get black. Holsteins can be 51% black hided.

The CAB specs disqualify cattle with dairy influence.

would you please tell me how they test to know if they are dairy influenced the cab -s own web site says that the animals that are placed in these cab licensed feed lots must only appear to be of angus decent and 51% black hided. now for the record are the angus cattle the only breed that is or has ever been that could cause the black hide on the these animals ???

one last question why don't the cab advertise to the consumer that the animals that are sold as angus beef only appear to be angus!! now that would turn some heads would it not?

allso on the breeds board you quoted the 19% that meet the grade that are sold as cab. that is nothing more than luck one could expect to have at a crap shooting game.

 

[Anonymous]

As you know Angus isn't the only way to get black. Holsteins can be 51% black hided.

The CAB specs disqualify cattle with dairy influence.

would you please tell me how they test to know if they are dairy influenced the cab -s own web site says that the animals that are placed in these cab licensed feed lots must only appear to be of angus decent and 51% black hided. now for the record are the angus cattle the only breed that is or has ever been that could cause the black hide on the these animals ???

one last question why don't the cab advertise to the consumer that the animals that are sold as angus beef only appear to be angus!! now that would turn some heads would it not?

allso on the breeds board you quoted the 19% that meet the grade that are sold as cab. that is nothing more than luck one could expect to have at a be nice shooting game.

than the luck one would have at a dice game. i guess the board would not allow me to calll a dice game what it is a crap shoot!

 

[Anonymous]

As you know Angus isn't the only way to get black. Holsteins can be 51% black hided.

The CAB specs disqualify cattle with dairy influence.

would you please tell me how they test to know if they are dairy influenced the cab -s own web site says that the animals that are placed in these cab licensed feed lots must only appear to be of angus decent and 51% black hided. now for the record are the angus cattle the only breed that is or has ever been that could cause the black hide on the these animals ???

one last question why don't the cab advertise to the consumer that the animals that are sold as angus beef only appear to be angus!! now that would turn some heads would it not?

allso on the breeds board you quoted the 19% that meet the grade that are sold as cab. that is nothing more than luck one could expect to have at a be nice shooting game.

than the luck one would have at a dice game. i guess the board would not allow me to calll a dice game what it is a be nice shoot!

how about this a crapp game

 

[Frankie]

Guest wrote: "would you please tell me how they test to know if they are dairy influenced the cab -s own web site says that the animals that are placed in these cab licensed feed lots must only appear to be of angus decent and 51% black hided. now for the record are the angus cattle the only breed that is or has ever been that could cause the black hide on the these animals ???"

From the USDA Branded Beef specs site:

""2.2 Phenotype. Cattle eligible for certification in Angus influence beef programs based on phenotype (appearance) must be predominately (51 percent) solid black. Blue roan, gray, etc., are not considered to be black or a percentage of black. Such variations can qualify only when it occupies 49 percent, or less, of the body area with the remaining 51 percent, or greater, being solid black. 1/ Angus influence cattle may be either horned or polled. Carcasses of certified live animals which display certain non-Angus characteristics (e.g.; dairy conformation, Brahman humps) shall be excluded as specified in the carcass specifications for approved programs."

And

"3.2 Phenotype. Three options are available to ensure that live animals comply with the specified requirements. They are (1) continuous USDA supervision, (2) ante-mortem lot inspection, and (3) program monitoring. Under the first two options USDA personnel shall certify that the animals meet the specified requirements prior to slaughter. Procedures for these two options shall be developed on an individual plant basis and shall be approved by the local Meat Grading and Certification Branch (MGCB) area office. Under option 3, the procedures described in 3.2.1 shall be followed.
3.2.1 Program Monitoring Procedures - Trained employees of the slaughter plant conducting the program shall identify the carcasses of cattle that meet the specified requirements with an approved stamp. These employees must display program identification whenever they are performing live animal identification duties. MGCB agents shall conduct unannounced, random checks of these employees= work as shown in Table I. MGCB agents shall observe the work for a period of not less than 2 minutes, nor more than 5 minutes, each time. The MGCB agent shall record any defects shown in Table II during each monitoring period."

I'm not going to copy the entire set of specs. Here's a link to the site so you can read full requirements for CAB:

http://www.ams.usda.gov/lsg/certprog/Sc ... ed-GLA.htm

In spite of what some people would like to believe, CAB is serious business for both the packer and the Angus Assn. The packers spend a lot of money every year to identify cattle properly that meed CAB specs. And those specifications are not easy to meet.

There may be another breed that will produce black cattle somewhere in the world. But you know and I know that breeders here in the US introduced Angus into their bloodlines to get black cattle.

"one last question why don't the cab advertise to the consumer that the animals that are sold as angus beef only appear to be angus!! now that would turn some heads would it not?"

Why would CAB want to advertise that? The CAB specifications call for the animal to be 51% black. That is acceptable to prove Angus influence. You don't think it's enough? Too bad. You and John don't get to run the CAB program.

"allso on the breeds board you quoted the 19% that meet the grade that are sold as cab. that is nothing more than luck one could expect to have at a be nice shooting game."

Do you feed any cattle, get back any carcass data? If so, I'd be interested in seeing how many and what percentage of your cattle meet CAB specs. Talk's cheap. Let's see your figures (or figures on several thousand of your chosen breed) for grading mid-Choice or better, YG3 or better.

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you Frankie for re-enforcing my observations about the CAB sham program. No specs for Real Angus involved. Great to know that most people agree that any black hide is Angus. I guess any red hide is hereford, yes,they also participate in fraud. Any white hide is Charolais, brown is brown swiss, and so forth. I have no disagreement for the specs, only the false advertising. It is very simple and maybe even you "twist the facts", "fraud justifiers" can understand =

JUST PROMOTE AND ADVERTISE WHAT YOU ARE SELLING, NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS.

Sorry, I guess that is pretty hard to do if you are a paid participant in a money making sham such as CAB.

And thanks also for letting people know that I have no connection to this ongoing criminal fraud, I value the truth too much to ever become involved in such a racket. Sure wish there were more beef producers who valued the truth, then maybe consumers would trust the beef industry to a greater degree.

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you Frankie for re-enforcing my observations about the CAB sham program. No specs for Real Angus involved. Great to know that most people agree that any black hide is Angus. I guess any red hide is hereford, yes,they also participate in fraud. Any white hide is Charolais, brown is brown swiss, and so forth. I have no disagreement for the specs, only the false advertising. It is very simple and maybe even you "twist the facts", "fraud justifiers" can understand =

JUST PROMOTE AND ADVERTISE WHAT YOU ARE SELLING, NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS.

Sorry, I guess that is pretty hard to do if you are a paid participant in a money making sham such as CAB.

And thanks also for letting people know that I have no connection to this ongoing criminal fraud, I value the truth too much to ever become involved in such a racket. Sure wish there were more beef producers who valued the truth, then maybe consumers would trust the beef industry to a greater degree.

well said john

john while you are out today why not go to hardees and get one of those black angus steak burgers or go to your local super market that advertises black angus beef and get one of those ribeyes that were some of the smallest in the breeds comparisson germplasm evaluation program at marc!

of course i can hear the angus breeders now well you see when we crossed the angus with herford the herfords gave us a smaller ribeye. they will have some explanation i am sure. recently i saw a super market that was selling cab black angus beef the ribeye steaks and t bones looked like the animal needed to grow for another six months or so.

while you are at the super market why not ask them to change their advertising because someone from cab left off the most crucial word appears.

THIS BEEF APPEARS TO BE FROM BLACK ANGUS INFLUENCED COWS.

maybe the truth will come out that it is a sham or did i mean shame? naw i spelled it right the first time.

why dont they advertise it for what it is these animals were 51% black hided and could possibly be of angus influence but we make no such guarantees. i will tell you why the silver lining would be removed from their pockets! nuff said.

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you Frankie for re-enforcing my observations about the CAB sham program. No specs for Real Angus involved. Great to know that most people agree that any black hide is Angus. I guess any red hide is hereford, yes,they also participate in fraud. Any white hide is Charolais, brown is brown swiss, and so forth. I have no disagreement for the specs, only the false advertising. It is very simple and maybe even you "twist the facts", "fraud justifiers" can understand =

JUST PROMOTE AND ADVERTISE WHAT YOU ARE SELLING, NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS.

Sorry, I guess that is pretty hard to do if you are a paid participant in a money making sham such as CAB.

And thanks also for letting people know that I have no connection to this ongoing criminal fraud, I value the truth too much to ever become involved in such a racket. Sure wish there were more beef producers who valued the truth, then maybe consumers would trust the beef industry to a greater degree.

well said john

john while you are out today why not go to hardees and get one of those black angus steak burgers or go to your local super market that advertises black angus beef and get one of those ribeyes that were some of the smallest in the breeds comparisson germplasm evaluation program at marc!

of course i can hear the angus breeders now well you see when we crossed the angus with herford the herfords gave us a smaller ribeye. they will have some explanation i am sure. recently i saw a super market that was selling cab black angus beef the ribeye steaks and t bones looked like the animal needed to grow for another six months or so.

while you are at the super market why not ask them to change their advertising because someone from cab left off the most crucial word appears.

THIS BEEF APPEARS TO BE FROM BLACK ANGUS INFLUENCED COWS.

maybe the truth will come out that it is a sham or did i mean shame? naw i spelled it right the first time.

why dont they advertise it for what it is these animals were 51% black hided and could possibly be of angus influence but we make no such guarantees. i will tell you why the silver lining would be removed from their pockets! nuff said.

john one more thing

if you go to the breeds board and write about any other breed all of the angus people will be there with their two cents.

what i want to know is where are the defenders now. my old daddy who is now deceased would have two things to say about their lack of defense.

LOOKS LIKE THEY GOT CAUGHT WITH THEIR PANTS DOWN.

OR THEY COULDNT SAY DO DO IF THEY HAD A MOUTH FULL.

REMEMBER THE WORD HERE IS INTEGRITY WHICH IS WHAT THE CATTLE INDUSTRY NEEDS.

CALL IT WHAT IT IS APPEARS TO BE ANGUS INFLUENCED BEEF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Texan]

Guest, you seem to want to indict all of the Angus producers for what you perceive to be false advertising by their Association. That's not right and you know it. The Angus people have found a niche. A great big, HUGE niche and their marketing is doing what others should have been doing a long time ago. Delivering to the consumer what the consumer wants. All of us in the cattle business benefit from that, some more than others.

And don't consider this more defense from an Angus producer. I am a long way from being part of the "Black is Beautiful" crowd. We run about 5% black cattle, and that's just a coincidence. A cow on this place has to be a good producer first. If anything, I have a prejudice AGAINST black cattle because this time of year they're always in my way when I want to shade up.

The quality of CAB is the best you will find. That consistency is what consumers need to find at the meat counter. We all benefit from a satisfied consumer, even if it's only a trickle down effect.

 

[Frankie]

Guest said: "CALL IT WHAT IT IS APPEARS TO BE ANGUS INFLUENCED BEEF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Why? Because you say so? CAB is a USDA recognized trade mark. Every piece of CAB (not Black Angus Beef) meets the USDA specifications. You don't like it, start your own advertising program.

Gee, and I thought I was defending CAB. Silly me.

 

[Frankie]

Thank you Frankie for re-enforcing my observations about the CAB sham program. No specs for Real Angus involved. Great to know that most people agree that any black hide is Angus. I guess any red hide is hereford, yes,they also participate in fraud. Any white hide is Charolais, brown is brown swiss, and so forth. I have no disagreement for the specs, only the false advertising. It is very simple and maybe even you "twist the facts", "fraud justifiers" can understand =

JUST PROMOTE AND ADVERTISE WHAT YOU ARE SELLING, NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS.

Sorry, I guess that is pretty hard to do if you are a paid participant in a money making sham such as CAB.

And thanks also for letting people know that I have no connection to this ongoing criminal fraud, I value the truth too much to ever become involved in such a racket. Sure wish there were more beef producers who valued the truth, then maybe consumers would trust the beef industry to a greater degree.

You're a hypocrite, John. You know that all the parts in your Ford (Chevy, Dodge) truck were not built by Ford (Chevy, Dodge). You know your Sears refrigerator was probably built in Canada by a company that turns them out and puts Sears, Whirlpool, Amana, on the door. Are you complaining about that? Unlikely. You've told us before that you ran black cows. In that case you're benefiting from CAB, too.

The fact that beef demand is up, up, and still rising, is proof the consumers do trust beef producers. Inconsistency has been the main ccomplaint of consumers for years about beef; CAB has addressed that problem as much as any other agency. And people have responded by buying more and more of it. You say it's a sham? That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. The consumer, the industry, and me all say it's a good thing.

 

[Anonymous]

It is never a good thing to cheat, trick or mislead people. It is especially never a good thing if these people determine the value of your product. Yes, you may fool them for the short run but never the for the long term. Rationalization will get you no where. "Just because others are doing it", is no excuse. I really don't care about the automotive business, my concern is about fraudulent practices in the business of producing beef. You are free to keep promoting and participating in this type of fraud and you are free to justify your less-than-honest actions. What you are not free to do is to slight the beef producers who do NOT cheat, trick or mislead their customers. Yes, honesty is it's own reward. Yes, customers are concerned where their beef comes from. Yes, consumers will pay more for higher quality, and Yes, marketing is important for any product.

No, you don't have a mandate to misrepresent any product. No, you do not have a license to justify fraud by pointing out what others are doing. No, you do not have a right to "kill the messenger" just because they point out the fraudulent practices of CAB. No, I do not participate in the Angus/Black Hide fraud and never will. No, a few cents per pound advantage is never worth the price of personal integrity. No, justification about others actions is not an answer to questions about your own honesty.

 

[la4angus]

It is never a good thing to cheat, trick or mislead people. It is especially never a good thing if these people determine the value of your product. Yes, you may fool them for the short run but never the for the long term. Rationalization will get you no where. "Just because others are doing it", is no excuse. I really don't care about the automotive business, my concern is about fraudulent practices in the business of producing beef. You are free to keep promoting and participating in this type of fraud and you are free to justify your less-than-honest actions. What you are not free to do is to slight the beef producers who do NOT cheat, trick or mislead their customers. Yes, honesty is it's own reward. Yes, customers are concerned where their beef comes from. Yes, consumers will pay more for higher quality, and Yes, marketing is important for any product.

No, you don't have a mandate to misrepresent any product. No, you do not have a license to justify fraud by pointing out what others are doing. No, you do not have a right to "kill the messenger" just because they point out the fraudulent practices of CAB. No, I do not participate in the Angus/Black Hide fraud and never will. No, a few cents per pound advantage is never worth the price of personal integrity. No, justification about others actions is not an answer to questions about your own honesty.

John
You are so full of it, you are starting to drip.

 

[dun]

With sue for everything mentality of the bottom feeders, why aren't there class action suits all over the country for this "fraud"? Could it be that you're among the minority?

dun

It is never a good thing to cheat, trick or mislead people. It is especially never a good thing if these people determine the value of your product. Yes, you may fool them for the short run but never the for the long term. Rationalization will get you no where. "Just because others are doing it", is no excuse. I really don't care about the automotive business, my concern is about fraudulent practices in the business of producing beef. You are free to keep promoting and participating in this type of fraud and you are free to justify your less-than-honest actions. What you are not free to do is to slight the beef producers who do NOT cheat, trick or mislead their customers. Yes, honesty is it's own reward. Yes, customers are concerned where their beef comes from. Yes, consumers will pay more for higher quality, and Yes, marketing is important for any product.

No, you don't have a mandate to misrepresent any product. No, you do not have a license to justify fraud by pointing out what others are doing. No, you do not have a right to "kill the messenger" just because they point out the fraudulent practices of CAB. No, I do not participate in the Angus/Black Hide fraud and never will. No, a few cents per pound advantage is never worth the price of personal integrity. No, justification about others actions is not an answer to questions about your own honesty.

 

[Anonymous]

With sue for everything mentality of the bottom feeders, why aren't there class action suits all over the country for this "fraud"? Could it be that you're among the minority?

dun

It is never a good thing to cheat, trick or mislead people. It is especially never a good thing if these people determine the value of your product. Yes, you may fool them for the short run but never the for the long term. Rationalization will get you no where. "Just because others are doing it", is no excuse. I really don't care about the automotive business, my concern is about fraudulent practices in the business of producing beef. You are free to keep promoting and participating in this type of fraud and you are free to justify your less-than-honest actions. What you are not free to do is to slight the beef producers who do NOT cheat, trick or mislead their customers. Yes, honesty is it's own reward. Yes, customers are concerned where their beef comes from. Yes, consumers will pay more for higher quality, and Yes, marketing is important for any product.

No, you don't have a mandate to misrepresent any product. No, you do not have a license to justify fraud by pointing out what others are doing. No, you do not have a right to "kill the messenger" just because they point out the fraudulent practices of CAB. No, I do not participate in the Angus/Black Hide fraud and never will. No, a few cents per pound advantage is never worth the price of personal integrity. No, justification about others actions is not an answer to questions about your own honesty.

dun please tell me and john and others what would be wrong with the public knowing what cab posts on its own web site this beef if from what appears to be angus influenced beef. if you were to poll the american consumer they are ignorant as to the facts. you go to hardees or the supermarket there are the angus pictures this is nothing short of deception.


lastly why should anyone have to sue to bring out integrity or accountabilaty?? why not set the standard of integrity rather than hiding from it. it is a crying shame that people have to be made to do the right thing.

i would suggest to john he contact the super market chains and see if they are aware of the truth or hardees or burger king. he might even catch 60 minutes or 20 20 or datelines attention if he tryed. go for it john.

 

[Frankie]

It is never a good thing to cheat, trick or mislead people."

And no one is being cheated, tricked or mislead by CAB. The specificationsa are available to anyone that wants to read them. Only if beef if sold as CAB that does not meet those specifications is someone being cheated, tricked or mislead.

"It is especially never a good thing if these people determine the value of your product. Yes, you may fool them for the short run but never the for the long term. "

CAB has been around 25 years now. We sold more pounds of CAB last year and paid producers more preiums than ever before. Just when do you think consumers will decide they've been fooled? My suggestion is never, because they aren't being fooled.

"Rationalization will get you no where. "Just because others are doing it", is no excuse. I really don't care about the automotive business, my concern is about fraudulent practices in the business of producing beef."

So you're a selective hypocrite, John. You selected CAB to get rightous about and ignore all the other items around that do the same thing? They are no more fraud than CAB. You make me laugh.

"You are free to keep promoting and participating in this type of fraud and you are free to justify your less-than-honest actions."


What fraud? CAB sets the specifications for beef. Beef is sold as CAB, for more money, that meets those specs. There's no fraud there.

"What you are not free to do is to slight the beef producers who do NOT cheat, trick or mislead their customers."

Who's slighting those beef producers?

"Yes, honesty is it's own reward. Yes, customers are concerned where their beef comes from. Yes, consumers will pay more for higher quality, and Yes, marketing is important for any product."

Honesty is it's own reward. I am an honest cattleman who raises Angus cattle. The last estimate I saw said CAB added about $400 to the price of an Angus bull. There's no dishonesty, lies or cheating in CAB, as much as you'd like to claim so.

"No, you don't have a mandate to misrepresent any product. No, you do not have a license to justify fraud by pointing out what others are doing."

John, John, we've been through this before. Why don't you sue the CAB or American Angus Association if you're so convinced CAB is fraud? Put your money where your mouth is.

" No, you do not have a right to "kill the messenger" just because they point out the fraudulent practices of CAB."

Who's killing the messenger. I'm correcting your misrepresentation of the facts. CAB is not a fraud or a cheat.

"No, I do not participate in the Angus/Black Hide fraud and never will."

Let's be clear here. Are you saying you don't have black cattle?

" No, a few cents per pound advantage is never worth the price of personal integrity. No, justification about others actions is not an answer to questions about your own honesty."

I'd agree with you completely. But CAB is not illegal nor fraudlant; therefore Angus producers can and do participate in a profitable program that is the envy of most other breeds.