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Tc

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if you want to read something very interesting.click on the american normande asso.an click on normande beef .this is a very good read.id like to hear some of yalls 2cents on this subject.~~~~~~~~~Tc
 

CattleAnnie

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Interesting viewpoint indeed, TC. There are some interesting comments regarding 'balancer' bulls. Mind you, one does have to keep in mind that the man who wrote the beef info is the president of the assoc., but he does sound as if he's put some research into his topic.

Website: http://www.normandeassociation.com/
 

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I have a small Normande herd and I'm very happy with them, and if the president of the Normande Association is defending his breed is the same point of veiw many other breeders defend theirs, specially the blackhided ones, we need to respect the thoughts of everyone and if we are open minded we could do some research and convince our selfs that black hided cattle is not everything, blackhided cattle is just Angus marketing and if I have talk in the past of Simmangus or Balancer (Gelbvieh-Angus)is because I will compare in a near future the differrence of using Bulls of these composites and using Normande or Tarentaise bulls and even Braunvieh that in the Mexican tropics are use a lot to cross them with Brahmans.
In South America and more specific, in Colombia and Brazil, Normande cattle is gaining a lot of popularity as a dual purpose breed (more than Simmental) and its meat is having acceptance in the market for it's excellent quality and yield grades
 
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A. delaGarza":1ms18zk2 said:
I have a small Normande herd and I'm very happy with them, and if the president of the Normande Association is defending his breed is the same point of veiw many other breeders defend theirs, specially the blackhided ones, we need to respect the thoughts of everyone and if we are open minded we could do some research and convince our selfs that black hided cattle is not everything, blackhided cattle is just Angus marketing and if I have talk in the past of Simmangus or Balancer (Gelbvieh-Angus)is because I will compare in a near future the differrence of using Bulls of these composites and using Normande or Tarentaise bulls and even Braunvieh that in the Mexican tropics are use a lot to cross them with Brahmans.
In South America and more specific, in Colombia and Brazil, Normande cattle is gaining a lot of popularity as a dual purpose breed (more than Simmental) and its meat is having acceptance in the market for it's excellent quality and yield grades

i agree with your comment about being open minded that is the trouble with a lot of people their breed or their learning is all that matters. you speak about the black hides and angus marketing i read a recent article that spoke about who started the angus cab {certified angus beef } it was a small road show started in 1978 in ohio the author of this article said no one took the three guys running the road show serious! the packers want leaner beef with less fat waisted the super markets also want this and the consumer wants a healthy beef product. people need to be open minded enough or do their home work about what each breed can bring to the table of the packer the vendor and the consumer and most importantly the PRODUCER

i also read an article that said it might be time for the usda to change their grading sytem as back during the wars usda choice was set as the premium because of the need for beef tallow for the war efforts! usda choice also includes marbling. but is is time this article said for back fat and marbling to be seperated as fat benifits no one not the packer nor the vendor nor the consumer this article spoke also about the costs and waist of feeds to produce this throw away product.
 
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Tc":34ngnpe6 said:
if you want to read something very interesting.click on the american normande asso.an click on normande beef .this is a very good read.id like to hear some of yalls 2cents on this subject.~~~~~~~~~Tc

i just reviewed this web site and read the article you spoke of. a litttle over a week ago i mentioned some facts about piedmontese on the breeds board. i asked for studies or facts on ones breed i have yet to receive a post from an angus breeder or any one else with aweb site that showed studies like the author did on the normande web site.

if a lot of people would go to the site you mentioned they would say the author was bashing the angus. nothing could be further from the truth i beleive. all breeds have something to offer the author mentioned the normande pied and holstein cross steer. apparently the normande the pied and holstein complemented each other.

there are simmetal breeders that are milking the simmetals and crossing with piedmontese and are using the piedmontese cross heifers for milking and finding no loss in production. while finding their pied simmetal cross steers are finishing out with premiums.
 

A. delaGarza

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Piedmontese X Simmental, I thought of this cross in the past but haven't decided to do it, I have done it with Belgian Blue but don't want to mess with Double Muscle again, maybe a Piedmontese-European percentage bull for comercial cows as terminal sire will work great but not in my mind at this time.


gale little tykes pieds":3cy2d0vy said:
Tc":3cy2d0vy said:
if you want to read something very interesting.click on the american normande asso.an click on normande beef .this is a very good read.id like to hear some of yalls 2cents on this subject.~~~~~~~~~Tc

i just reviewed this web site and read the article you spoke of. a litttle over a week ago i mentioned some facts about piedmontese on the breeds board. i asked for studies or facts on ones breed i have yet to receive a post from an angus breeder or any one else with aweb site that showed studies like the author did on the normande web site.

if a lot of people would go to the site you mentioned they would say the author was bashing the angus. nothing could be further from the truth i beleive. all breeds have something to offer the author mentioned the normande pied and holstein cross steer. apparently the normande the pied and holstein complemented each other.

there are simmetal breeders that are milking the simmetals and crossing with piedmontese and are using the piedmontese cross heifers for milking and finding no loss in production. while finding their pied simmetal cross steers are finishing out with premiums.
 

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Can you elaborate on why you don not want to mess with Double muscling again please? As I mentioned elsewhere I was very interested in this characteristic early on and would like to learn about as many experiences as possible. On the other thread I am afraid that some of my questions came across as favortism, not so !
 

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gale little tykes pieds":1b62njut said:
i agree with your comment about being open minded that is the trouble with a lot of people their breed or their learning is all that matters. you speak about the black hides and angus marketing i read a recent article that spoke about who started the angus cab {certified angus beef } it was a small road show started in 1978 in ohio the author of this article said no one took the three guys running the road show serious! the packers want leaner beef with less fat waisted the super markets also want this and the consumer wants a healthy beef product. people need to be open minded enough or do their home work about what each breed can bring to the table of the packer the vendor and the consumer and most importantly the PRODUCER

i also read an article that said it might be time for the usda to change their grading sytem as back during the wars usda choice was set as the premium because of the need for beef tallow for the war efforts! usda choice also includes marbling. but is is time this article said for back fat and marbling to be seperated as fat benifits no one not the packer nor the vendor nor the consumer this article spoke also about the costs and waist of feeds to produce this throw away product.

Did your recent article mention that in 2003 the packers paid $50 MILLION in premiums to cattlemen for cattle that met CAB specs? Did it mention that last year the CAB “road show” sold 585 MILLION pounds of product for $2.3 BILLION, worldwide? Probably not.

Yes, when Continental breeds came into the US, the packers loved them. They got more beef from processing one animal than from the much smaller Angus, Hereford and Shorthorn. When they realized that they were losing money because the Continental cattle wouldn’t marble, they appealed to the USDA to lower the quality grade standards so they could sell more beef as Choice. The Angus Association opposed that move, but the USDA made the grading changes. But the packers didn’t fool consumers. Beef consumption in the US started dropping at about the same time. In general consumers prefer marbled beef. That’s why Choice costs more than Select in the supermarket and why CAB costs more than Choice and Prime costs more than any of them. (BTW, there is now a CAB Prime product available in some places, as well as a CAB Natural.) The packers could call it whatever grade the USDA agreed to, but it didn’t taste the same. The American Angus Association believed that Angus producers were raising better cattle and decided to put their money where their mouth was and started CAB. They almost shut the program down over the years because it wasn’t paying for itself and the Association was in dire financial straits. But they believed in the breed and today CAB is (by far) the largest branded beef program, bringing in millions of dollars to the AAA for licenses to sell it, millions to producers who are willing to pay attention to genetics, millions to the packers and retailers. It’s a remarkable story. On the 25th Anniversary, the Angus Journal an article “CAB at 25”. It’s online at:
http://www.angusjournal.com/ArticlePDF/ ... ABat25.pdf

“…wars usda choice was set as the premium because of the need for beef tallow for the war efforts!”

LOL!! Which wars would that be? Back fat and marbling are separately graded. Sides of beef generally get two grades: Quality and Yield. The Quality grade measures the marbling in the meat. The Yield grade measures muscling and fat. Both the AAA and the Limousin Association have studies that show backfat and marbling are not closely related. Your article is right that producers should pay attention to backfat. In the Angus breed, one can use EPDs to select bulls that will improve marbling (Quality grade) and not increase backfat (Yield grade). But you’ve got to be careful, especially in colder regions, because cows need some backfat to maintain themselves and breed back. The Future Beef group had some studies showing cows that produced YG1 steers were less likely to breed back than those producing YG2 & 3 steers.

Why should the USDA change the grading standards? The packers are doing well, selling high marbling beef to those that want it and Select (lower marbling) to those who want lean beef. They make money on all of it. Consumers are apparently happy since beef demand has been on an amazing upward trend for several years now. And the cattlemen accepting the $50Million in premiums are surely happy. So why change grading standards?

Here at this place, we’re in the cattle business to make money. We also enjoy the heck out of it, but our cattle must, at the very least, support themselves. I can’t tell you how happy I am that we chose an Angus bull to put on our first heifers. Once we started studying breeds, it was obvious the Angus breed was far ahead of any other in providing genetic information to producers. Just because you’re learning today doesn’t mean the rest of us aren’t far ahead of you on the learning curve. There’s no doubt in my mind that if you stay in the cattle business and expect to make money, over the next five years you’ll increase your use of Angus genetics.

And I’d have to disagree with you that the producer is more important than the consumer. If the consumer doesn’t buy our product, producers can’t stay in business. What the consumer wants is what we need to produce at a reasonable cost.

BTW, I’m still waiting for you to explain how you got those Pieds black?
 
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gale little tykes pieds":2d9l960e said:
A. delaGarza":2d9l960e said:
you speak about the black hides and angus marketing i read a recent article that spoke about who started the angus cab {certified angus beef }

i also read an article that said it might be time for the usda to change their grading sytem ......

Ask the average consumer what "Angus" means. I will bet you hear they think it IS a grade.
 

A. delaGarza

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Tman":29cqa0a6 said:
Can you elaborate on why you don not want to mess with Double muscling again please? As I mentioned elsewhere I was very interested in this characteristic early on and would like to learn about as many experiences as possible. On the other thread I am afraid that some of my questions came across as favortism, not so !

you will need almost 2 full years to really see the benefits or big differences in weight.
I use to sell my steers at 10 months, so it won't worth to mess with any of the DM breeds
 

A. delaGarza

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goatlady":3v3eqw1n said:
gale little tykes pieds":3v3eqw1n said:
A. delaGarza":3v3eqw1n said:
you speak about the black hides and angus marketing i read a recent article that spoke about who started the angus cab {certified angus beef }

i also read an article that said it might be time for the usda to change their grading sytem ......

Ask the average consumer what "Angus" means. I will bet you hear they think it IS a grade.
I didn't wrote that, BUT as far as I know consumers relate Angus with meat, and many consumers don't even know what color it is, just cattleman relate Angus with Black hided cattle.
 
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Back to the DVM who wrote of the NORMANDE breed. One thing that definately jumped out at me was a giant contradiction. In the same paragragh it is stated that the U.S. Cattle Industry is in a "genetic void" and then the author states that we also have "excessive genetic diversity"? There's genes aplenty in Texas. Most other places too. And I am not being critical. Evervyone has their favorite breed or breeds and the Normande sounds interesting. I am a Polled Hereford person myself. My family has been raising them for over 75 years or so. I have a commercial cow herd (small) of interesting crosses. Hereford/Holstein, and few nice Beefmaster/Simmental/Brangus///Hereford/Holstein cows and heifers. I have had wonderful success with my Holstein crosses. I can milk if I want to or raise extra calves. It's good to always keep a good tame milk cow or two for situations that may arise. A half-blood does fine. I also have a few of my beloved Reg Polled Herefords...gorgeous dark red and regal. And like my Pappy used to say, "There's nothin' as pretty as a white-faced calf."
 

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Frankie":1an7rqdk said:
gale little tykes pieds":1an7rqdk said:
i agree with your comment about being open minded that is the trouble with a lot of people their breed or their learning is all that matters. you speak about the black hides and angus marketing i read a recent article that spoke about who started the angus cab {certified angus beef } it was a small road show started in 1978 in ohio the author of this article said no one took the three guys running the road show serious! the packers want leaner beef with less fat waisted the super markets also want this and the consumer wants a healthy beef product. people need to be open minded enough or do their home work about what each breed can bring to the table of the packer the vendor and the consumer and most importantly the PRODUCER

i also read an article that said it might be time for the usda to change their grading sytem as back during the wars usda choice was set as the premium because of the need for beef tallow for the war efforts! usda choice also includes marbling. but is is time this article said for back fat and marbling to be seperated as fat benifits no one not the packer nor the vendor nor the consumer this article spoke also about the costs and waist of feeds to produce this throw away product.

Did your recent article mention that in 2003 the packers paid $50 MILLION in premiums to cattlemen for cattle that met CAB specs? Did it mention that last year the CAB “road show” sold 585 MILLION pounds of product for $2.3 BILLION, worldwide? Probably not.

Yes, when Continental breeds came into the US, the packers loved them. They got more beef from processing one animal than from the much smaller Angus, Hereford and Shorthorn. When they realized that they were losing money because the Continental cattle wouldn’t marble, they appealed to the USDA to lower the quality grade standards so they could sell more beef as Choice. The Angus Association opposed that move, but the USDA made the grading changes. But the packers didn’t fool consumers. Beef consumption in the US started dropping at about the same time. In general consumers prefer marbled beef. That’s why Choice costs more than Select in the supermarket and why CAB costs more than Choice and Prime costs more than any of them. (BTW, there is now a CAB Prime product available in some places, as well as a CAB Natural.) The packers could call it whatever grade the USDA agreed to, but it didn’t taste the same. The American Angus Association believed that Angus producers were raising better cattle and decided to put their money where their mouth was and started CAB. They almost shut the program down over the years because it wasn’t paying for itself and the Association was in dire financial straits. But they believed in the breed and today CAB is (by far) the largest branded beef program, bringing in millions of dollars to the AAA for licenses to sell it, millions to producers who are willing to pay attention to genetics, millions to the packers and retailers. It’s a remarkable story. On the 25th Anniversary, the Angus Journal an article “CAB at 25”. It’s online at:
http://www.angusjournal.com/ArticlePDF/ ... ABat25.pdf

“…wars usda choice was set as the premium because of the need for beef tallow for the war efforts!”

LOL!! Which wars would that be? Back fat and marbling are separately graded. Sides of beef generally get two grades: Quality and Yield. The Quality grade measures the marbling in the meat. The Yield grade measures muscling and fat. Both the AAA and the Limousin Association have studies that show backfat and marbling are not closely related. Your article is right that producers should pay attention to backfat. In the Angus breed, one can use EPDs to select bulls that will improve marbling (Quality grade) and not increase backfat (Yield grade). But you’ve got to be careful, especially in colder regions, because cows need some backfat to maintain themselves and breed back. The Future Beef group had some studies showing cows that produced YG1 steers were less likely to breed back than those producing YG2 & 3 steers.

Why should the USDA change the grading standards? The packers are doing well, selling high marbling beef to those that want it and Select (lower marbling) to those who want lean beef. They make money on all of it. Consumers are apparently happy since beef demand has been on an amazing upward trend for several years now. And the cattlemen accepting the $50Million in premiums are surely happy. So why change grading standards?

Here at this place, we’re in the cattle business to make money. We also enjoy the heck out of it, but our cattle must, at the very least, support themselves. I can’t tell you how happy I am that we chose an Angus bull to put on our first heifers. Once we started studying breeds, it was obvious the Angus breed was far ahead of any other in providing genetic information to producers. Just because you’re learning today doesn’t mean the rest of us aren’t far ahead of you on the learning curve. There’s no doubt in my mind that if you stay in the cattle business and expect to make money, over the next five years you’ll increase your use of Angus genetics.

And I’d have to disagree with you that the producer is more important than the consumer. If the consumer doesn’t buy our product, producers can’t stay in business. What the consumer wants is what we need to produce at a reasonable cost.

BTW, I’m still waiting for you to explain how you got those Pieds black?
I am supportive of cab as a marketing tool. I think it is absolutely silly to think that the reason that it is successful is that it has angus in its name. Cab sets standards that are a benchmark for a good eating experience however these aren't the only criteria. Cab would have been just as successful if the criteria had included spotted cattle only and been called Certified Simmental Beef. It's the minimum grading and age criteria that the consumer enjoies not the color of the hide. The color of the hide is a marketing tool for the AAA. For that I applaude them . I just wish that I had thought of it first.
 
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Why in the world would you admire fraud???? I guess some would admire fraud when there is money to be made. Good luck. You can only continue the deception for so long. Luckily, because of all the jumping on the bandwagon, the angus fraud will be exposd sooner.
 

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TexasCountryWoman":13mo77ej said:
like my Pappy used to say, "There's nothin' as pretty as a white-faced calf."

Pappy is right

dun
 

dun

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John S":h0ky5k11 said:
Why in the world would you admire fraud???? I guess some would admire fraud when there is money to be made. Good luck. You can only continue the deception for so long. Luckily, because of all the jumping on the bandwagon, the angus fraud will be exposd sooner.

Back to beating this dead horse again?

It's a name, could have been called "good black beef", I suppose you think that Martha White actaully mills the flour, or Sarah Lee bakes the cookies.
If you read the USDA specs you can see what it is. If a consumer wishes to they can do it also.

dun
 

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John fraud would imply that consumers are buying it because they think that the Angus in cab makes it better . My whole post is stating that people are buying it because it is a good eating experience. I don't raise black angus cattle and 75% of my cows are red. That dosn't mean that I can't admire a successful marketing program. Do you think that that Walmart is really rolling back prices as implied ? Do you really think that short horns are really the milk breed? Are Ballancers really more than half bloods? Can you really loose weight eating at subway all the time. Get a grip man you can't actually believe everything you read!!!!!!
 

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goatlady":2asaupt4 said:
Ask the average consumer what "Angus" means. I will bet you hear they think it IS a grade.

I think the average consumer equates "Angus" with high quality. That's the reason so many products have the word "Angus" in their name. BTW, I had a Carl's Jr. $6.00 Angus burger recently and it was wonderful. I see that Burger King is selling an Angus Steakburger, too.
 

Frankie

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ollie":1h8cl9dv said:
John fraud would imply that consumers are buying it because they think that the Angus in cab makes it better . My whole post is stating that people are buying it because it is a good eating experience. I don't raise black angus cattle and 75% of my cows are red. That dosn't mean that I can't admire a successful marketing program. Do you think that that Walmart is really rolling back prices as implied ? Do you really think that short horns are really the milk breed? Are Ballancers really more than half bloods? Can you really loose weight eating at subway all the time. Get a grip man you can't actually believe everything you read!!!!!!

I think actual "fraud" would be selling something as CAB that didn't meet the CAB specs. Those specifications say nothing about the animal having a drop of Angus blood; the black color is proof of Angus influence. IMO, it's one of the smartest things the Angus Assn ever did; it's doubtful the packers, at that time, would have bought into a program that required proof of Angus blood. That would lay them open to lots of lawsuits and having to prove time and again that animals were Angus. But John doesn't care; he just wants to bash the Angus Assn.
 
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