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Brandonm2":3iza5j69 said:
He had grey curly hair and was long tenured too,... right???
I am not naming names; but I think we have been talking to some of the same people. I have also owned a couple of those registered Angus cows with Holstein-ish heads.
Actually, he was, at the time a rather young man from Iowa. He's no longer at AU. Same man said the Brahman based breeds were "pretty good crossbreeds." I remember that he didn't care for Brahman cattle, RC's, or Moon Pies! Said so.
 
DOC HARRIS":100o52ca said:
- YOU ARE CORRECT! Stay tuned. I'll be back later.

DOC HARRIS

I'm back - 8 hours later!

You are right about cattle (or any other species) breeding as a result of " - - genetic selection" being a "powerful tool", - and EPD's are the 'nuts and bolts" of that genetic tool! How those nuts and bolts are put together and 'torqued' determines how the 'machine', if you will, ultimately functions and performs. Selecting breeding stock by phenotype ONLY will possibly take 25 -40 years, - and by incorporating EPD's it can be accomplished in 6 generations or less. As "they" say - do the math! Phenotype IS the embodiment of EPD's - good or bad, correctly applied or mis-used - -THERE they are, in ALL their glory, standing naked to the world!

DOC HARRIS
Doc, here is where we go our seperate ways. You take one fork and I take the other. We couldn't disagree more. By phenotype I narrowly mean body type. I dont' mean weights or epd's (although I mean weight more than epd's). I think mostly gone are the days were you could look at the J C Penny herd ( I am using them because I know you are familiar with them. I am not advocating that type and never saw them they were reported to me to be consistant)and know what kind of phenotype EVERY cow would be. There isn't a consistant phenotype program in many , if any , herds in the country. While I will grant you lots of herds have the same numbers , some will be big , some little , some pretty and some ugly. In each herd some will be productive and some will not. The reason for non productive cows in some of the more popular herds is :lets all say it together now "contemporary grouping". I wish I knew where there were consistant bred herds of cattle with the same phenotype cattle that I like and that I think will work in my herd. There are lots of herds that have a few cattle I like but few herds that have lots of cattle I like and very few to none that have all the type cattle I like. That is what I refer to when I say it takes a life time. I can build a set of numbers in a few generations but if I was using epd's to breed spots off of cattle how long would it take? I am not saying epds are completely worthless but in breeding a cattle with a certain visual phenotype they won't help. I find a certain type cattle work on my place , numbers or no numbers. They have to be deep, roomy, long spined , comfortable type cattle that are meaty with lots of width. What epd's will help me find them????
 
Quote from "Campground Cattle" post:

"Because of such difference in opinions in the past, the present, and likely in the future, Hereford cattle will command the premier spot in the beef cattle industry for years to come."

I have read and re-read this sentence several times. I have attempted to objectively analyize the meaning that this paragraph seems to imply or suggest. It could be that the writer mis-spoke - or - it is an oxymoron. In any case, to say that . . . the culmination of differences of opinions of many breeders will result in Hereford cattle commanding the premier spot in the beef cattle industry for years to come strikes me as being without solid foundation or logic.

The article gives the appearance of accurate events which occurred with the Hereford breed and some other Beef breeds as well about the same period of time, and it is well presented and well taken. However, the last paragraph seems skewed to me.

DOC HARRIS
 
ollie'":44e0romn said:
DOC HARRIS":44e0romn said:
- YOU ARE CORRECT! Stay tuned. I'll be back later.

DOC HARRIS

I'm back - 8 hours later!

You are right about cattle (or any other species) breeding as a result of " - - genetic selection" being a "powerful tool", - and EPD's are the 'nuts and bolts" of that genetic tool! How those nuts and bolts are put together and 'torqued' determines how the 'machine', if you will, ultimately functions and performs. Selecting breeding stock by phenotype ONLY will possibly take 25 -40 years, - and by incorporating EPD's it can be accomplished in 6 generations or less. As "they" say - do the math! Phenotype IS the embodiment of EPD's - good or bad, correctly applied or mis-used - -THERE they are, in ALL their glory, standing naked to the world!

DOC HARRIS
Doc, here is where we go our seperate ways. You take one fork and I take the other. We couldn't disagree more. By phenotype I narrowly mean body type. I dont' mean weights or epd's (although I mean weight more than epd's). I think mostly gone are the days were you could look at the J C Penny herd ( I am using them because I know you are familiar with them. I am not advocating that type and never saw them they were reported to me to be consistant)and know what kind of phenotype EVERY cow would be. There isn't a consistant phenotype program in many , if any , herds in the country. While I will grant you lots of herds have the same numbers , some will be big , some little , some pretty and some ugly. In each herd some will be productive and some will not. The reason for non productive cows in some of the more popular herds is :lets all say it together now "contemporary grouping". I wish I knew where there were consistant bred herds of cattle with the same phenotype cattle that I like and that I think will work in my herd. There are lots of herds that have a few cattle I like but few herds that have lots of cattle I like and very few to none that have all the type cattle I like. That is what I refer to when I say it takes a life time. I can build a set of numbers in a few generations but if I was using epd's to breed spots off of cattle how long would it take? I am not saying epds are completely worthless but in breeding a cattle with a certain visual phenotype they won't help. I find a certain type cattle work on my place , numbers or no numbers. They have to be deep, roomy, long spined , comfortable type cattle that are meaty with lots of width. What epd's will help me find them????
ollie' -
Once again we are confronted with the old Demon of "Misunderstanding". This type of situation has existed since the Tower of Babel! ollie', I am not at war with you in the discussion of Phenotype and Genotype! I take exception to your thinking that "we couldn't disagree more!"

Take notice of two phrases I used in my post of November 11, 12:21 P.M.: "YOU ARE CORRECT" and " . . .selecting breeding stock by phenotype ONLY . . .! If we disagree at all it is by a degree of percentage only. I can't tell you how many times I have stressed a "BALANCE" between Phenotype (looks) and Genotype (EPD's).

You mentioned J.C.Penny's Homeplace Herd. They were deep, roomy, long-spined (although too short-legged, as were most Beef cattle of that era), and EPD's were unknown at that time! The contention which seems to exist between Phenotype and Genotype should not be a factor at all! The debate, if you care to refer to it as that, should be a BALANCING ACT, as a Teeter-totter, and Phenotype and Genotype should be compatible and working TOGETHER - not in opposition to each other.

Your question in regard as to which EPD's will help you find "deep, roomy, long-spined, comfortable type cattle that are meaty with lots of width" can be answered two ways:
1) A well-balanced blend of ALL epd's.
2) Unfortunately, there are a number of physical or type traits which do not have EPD's capable of description or transmission as yet.
That sounds like a confliction, but the functional traits are being studied and worked on "as we speak" as the saying goes. If everything were perfect today, every breeder would have ALL his cattle in a single contemporary group, and all of the breeders problems and questions would be solved. That situation will NEVER happen in this life! Ergo, we continue to strive and struggle and think and become educated and aware of changes in thinking for the improvement of our beloved BUSINESS.

Dr. Harlan Ritchie has combined his thoughts and some explanations concerning this very subject, ollie', in a treatise which almost says it all. I say "almost" because no one will ever be capable in saying it all! Please log onto this site and read it. He says it far better than I, and I think that you will have to agree regarding - - KEEPING THINGS IN BALANCE.

http://www.msu.edu/~ritchie/papers/keep ... lance.html

DOC HARRIS
 
I wish I knew where there were consistant bred herds of cattle with the same phenotype....

Ollie - the place you look for that is with linebred cattle - the master of that is a hereford breeder Jim Lents. His "Lamplighter" newletter is great reading and his book - "The basis of Linebreeding " is a Must read for any serious cattle breeder. Line breeding works - I know I have been doing it since reading Jim's book and the "type" will become prepotent very quickly, but it does take several generations to get the prepotency to Jim's level. This was proven in his recent Genestar testing - Every bull tested showed the exact same results - even the company cheched it again to make sure no errors were made. I have thrown out the epd worry and will only linebred what works on my management and environment and let the epd's fall where they will.
 
DOC HARRIS":1i76dhf1 said:
Quote from "Campground Cattle" post:

"Because of such difference in opinions in the past, the present, and likely in the future, Hereford cattle will command the premier spot in the beef cattle industry for years to come."

I have read and re-read this sentence several times. I have attempted to objectively analyize the meaning that this paragraph seems to imply or suggest. It could be that the writer mis-spoke - or - it is an oxymoron. In any case, to say that . . . the culmination of differences of opinions of many breeders will result in Hereford cattle commanding the premier spot in the beef cattle industry for years to come strikes me as being without solid foundation or logic.

The article gives the appearance of accurate events which occurred with the Hereford breed and some other Beef breeds as well about the same period of time, and it is well presented and well taken. However, the last paragraph seems skewed to me.

DOC HARRIS


After a 150 years they are number 2 in breed registerations, maybe I am confused but looks to me that is a premier spot.
There are 3 essential breeds in the American beef industry like
it not and it is Angus, Hereford, and Brahmans.
 
DOC HARRIS":vxoh3q28 said:
J. T.":vxoh3q28 said:
Heck, I remember a certain Auburn University professor telling us in class that Holstein was added to the Angus gene pool to add frame and it was evident because Angus cows had developed long chisled heads like a dairy cow. Also, we were told that Herefords had a little help from the Simmentals and that's where the increase in eye pigmentation came from. Not saying he was correct, but that's what the man said.
J. T. - I didn't say that Holstein was not infused with Angus. I said that the AAA didn't eliminate "Aberdeen" from the name for that reason!

DOC HARRIS
No argument here, DOC! Wasn't referring to a name change....just some 20 some odd year old info shared with me by an Animal and Dairy Science prof.
 
Campground Cattle":15fojsvx said:
DOC HARRIS":15fojsvx said:
Quote from "Campground Cattle" post:

"Because of such difference in opinions in the past, the present, and likely in the future, Hereford cattle will command the premier spot in the beef cattle industry for years to come."

I have read and re-read this sentence several times. I have attempted to objectively analyize the meaning that this paragraph seems to imply or suggest. It could be that the writer mis-spoke - or - it is an oxymoron. In any case, to say that . . . the culmination of differences of opinions of many breeders will result in Hereford cattle commanding the premier spot in the beef cattle industry for years to come strikes me as being without solid foundation or logic.

The article gives the appearance of accurate events which occurred with the Hereford breed and some other Beef breeds as well about the same period of time, and it is well presented and well taken. However, the last paragraph seems skewed to me.

DOC HARRIS


After a 150 years they are number 2 in breed registerations, maybe I am confused but looks to me that is a premier spot.
There are 3 essential breeds in the American beef industry like
it not and it is Angus, Hereford, and Brahmans.

The article says THE premier spot, not A premier spot. Big difference.
 
Doc, maybe couldn't disagree more was too strong. I stress the short comings of epd's because of the rush to buy cattle based strictly on epd's. Just look at the questions posed here, on this board. Lots of potential buyers ask the question" what about this bull" etc. and only post his registration number which links to epd's and pedigrees. You can't make much improvement in phenotype with that information alone. There are as many different type EXT's for example as you can imagine. Some better than he was probably but some surely not worth using as a commercial bull. You could say the same for any bull. If we could stress the importance of actually knowing , and being able to identify the difference in cattle phenotype , visualy, as heavily as we stress the importance of epd's ,the industry would become more profitable and efficient as a whole. Back to the discussion of inserting impure genetics to change phenotype of purebred cattle. I am of the opinion that much more damage has been done to the respective purebred gene pools of each breed by the bottom ender "registered" breeder cranking out bulls with no knowledge of what qualities make up a good bull phenotypically. They can all read numbers and get all wound up about the quality of the numbers when in reality the bull should have been a steer. Their enthusiasm sells the bull to someone who is just beneath them in the pecking order and thus we have a less than desirable set of calves that several people have to own and make money off of in the production chain. Chicken and pork people have integrated their business where this doesn't happen.
 
ollie'":35ktyvom said:
Doc, maybe couldn't disagree more was too strong. I stress the short comings of epd's because of the rush to buy cattle based strictly on epd's. Just look at the questions posed here, on this board. Lots of potential buyers ask the question" what about this bull" etc. and only post his registration number which links to epd's and pedigrees. You can't make much improvement in phenotype with that information alone. There are as many different type EXT's for example as you can imagine. Some better than he was probably but some surely not worth using as a commercial bull. You could say the same for any bull. If we could stress the importance of actually knowing , and being able to identify the difference in cattle phenotype , visualy, as heavily as we stress the importance of epd's ,the industry would become more profitable and efficient as a whole. Back to the discussion of inserting impure genetics to change phenotype of purebred cattle. I am of the opinion that much more damage has been done to the respective purebred gene pools of each breed by the bottom ender "registered" breeder cranking out bulls with no knowledge of what qualities make up a good bull phenotypically. They can all read numbers and get all wound up about the quality of the numbers when in reality the bull should have been a steer. Their enthusiasm sells the bull to someone who is just beneath them in the pecking order and thus we have a less than desirable set of calves that several people have to own and make money off of in the production chain. Chicken and pork people have integrated their business where this doesn't happen.
ollie'-
We are closer in principle and philosophy than one might imagine in perusing these posts!

DOC HARRIS
 
You have never heard me rank a set of cattle on the pedigree and EPDs WITHOUT telling the person to go LOOK at the cattle and preferably the cattle's dams and sibs. I just think we have gone past the point of making management decisions SOLELY on the power of people's ability to eyeball cattle. All you have to do is spend a day looking at the pens of cattle at the stockyard to see that system could use some improvement.
 
My great grandpa, Pappy, and my folks raised 'Aberdeen Angus' from the 40's on, and when they started chasing the show circuit, AI'ing to names like Pine Drive, in the late 70's/early 80's, we started getting white. Cows w/white udders and belly patches, calves w/funny 'jock' marks, and so on. I had a 4-H steer one year that was supposed to be out of Pine Drive, and one of my Grandpa's favorite cows. He gave it to me for 4-H b/c it came out w/a white belly and 3 white socks! Trust me, it wasn't a semen error, and we didn't have any Hereford/Simmy neighbours then either.

I guess there's not much sense kicking old turds around too much, and we could all probably give plenty of these types of stories. But one thing we can't argue, is that some breeds changed awful fast and raised alot of eyebrows, long before blood-typing was heard of. Is there a point to mulling it over anymore? I don't think so really. But it's one of those topics that'll be argued forever, like Chev vs. Ford vs. Dodge. :lol: :cboy: :lol:
 
Something I forgot to add - in 1991 I think it was, we were in Scotland to see a bull shown that came from our place. He had Emulous breeding in him by the way. He was named Grand Champion bull over all breeds at the Royal Highland show outside Edinburgh, Scotland, then Gr. Champion Angus at the Royal show in England. What seems funny about it to me now in regards to this topic, is that he set a record for being the largest beef animal ever shown there, @ 66.5" at the hip, and 3417lbs., and he was the ABERDEEN ANGUS champion. :lol:

Just thought I'd throw that in.
 
Brandonm2":3074bu23 said:
You have never heard me rank a set of cattle on the pedigree and EPDs WITHOUT telling the person to go LOOK at the cattle and preferably the cattle's dams and sibs. I just think we have gone past the point of making management decisions SOLELY on the power of people's ability to eyeball cattle. All you have to do is spend a day looking at the pens of cattle at the stockyard to see that system could use some improvement.
The cattle you see at the sale barn today brandon have all been sired in a time where epd's are available and common. Lets go back to 1930 or 1950. I wonder how uniform and predictable the cattle would be. Now lets apply the improvements in animal husbandry, AI, and the bigger gene pool to select the good ones from. Lets imagine what they could be. I am not advocating throwing out epd's . I just think there is a whole lot more room for improvement in the visual appraisal area. If you disagree then so be it...
 
Campground Cattle":k8rivkmm said:
DOC HARRIS":k8rivkmm said:
Quote from "Campground Cattle" post:

"Because of such difference in opinions in the past, the present, and likely in the future, Hereford cattle will command the premier spot in the beef cattle industry for years to come."

I have read and re-read this sentence several times. I have attempted to objectively analyize the meaning that this paragraph seems to imply or suggest. It could be that the writer mis-spoke - or - it is an oxymoron. In any case, to say that . . . the culmination of differences of opinions of many breeders will result in Hereford cattle commanding the premier spot in the beef cattle industry for years to come strikes me as being without solid foundation or logic.

The article gives the appearance of accurate events which occurred with the Hereford breed and some other Beef breeds as well about the same period of time, and it is well presented and well taken. However, the last paragraph seems skewed to me.

DOC HARRIS


After a 150 years they are number 2 in breed registerations, maybe I am confused but looks to me that is a premier spot.
There are 3 essential breeds in the American beef industry like
it not and it is Angus, Hereford, and Brahmans.
Camp. Catt.- My confusion was not with "PREMIER". The operative word here is "COMMAND" in respect to "DIFFERENCE OF OPINIONS"!! :???:

DOC HARRIS
 
ollie'":1olo5rti said:
Brandonm2":1olo5rti said:
You have never heard me rank a set of cattle on the pedigree and EPDs WITHOUT telling the person to go LOOK at the cattle and preferably the cattle's dams and sibs. I just think we have gone past the point of making management decisions SOLELY on the power of people's ability to eyeball cattle. All you have to do is spend a day looking at the pens of cattle at the stockyard to see that system could use some improvement.
The cattle you see at the sale barn today brandon have all been sired in a time where epd's are available and common. Lets go back to 1930 or 1950. I wonder how uniform and predictable the cattle would be. Now lets apply the improvements in animal husbandry, AI, and the bigger gene pool to select the good ones from. Lets imagine what they could be. I am not advocating throwing out epd's . I just think there is a whole lot more room for improvement in the visual appraisal area. If you disagree then so be it...

I have been going to the stockyard for over 30 years and if you REALLY believe that most of those cattle were bred by people who read, understand, or paid any attention to EPDs we are going to ENTIRELY different stockyards. A lot of the cattle at the yard probably were not sired by a straightbred sire; much less a registered one WITH EPDS!!
 
Brandonm2":odifr906 said:
ollie'":odifr906 said:
Brandonm2":odifr906 said:
You have never heard me rank a set of cattle on the pedigree and EPDs WITHOUT telling the person to go LOOK at the cattle and preferably the cattle's dams and sibs. I just think we have gone past the point of making management decisions SOLELY on the power of people's ability to eyeball cattle. All you have to do is spend a day looking at the pens of cattle at the stockyard to see that system could use some improvement.
The cattle you see at the sale barn today brandon have all been sired in a time where epd's are available and common. Lets go back to 1930 or 1950. I wonder how uniform and predictable the cattle would be. Now lets apply the improvements in animal husbandry, AI, and the bigger gene pool to select the good ones from. Lets imagine what they could be. I am not advocating throwing out epd's . I just think there is a whole lot more room for improvement in the visual appraisal area. If you disagree then so be it...

I have been going to the stockyard for over 30 years and if you REALLY believe that most of those cattle were bred by people who read, understand, or paid any attention to EPDs we are going to ENTIRELY different stockyards. A lot of the cattle at the yard probably were not sired by a straightbred sire; much less a registered one WITH EPDS!!
:D Let me get this strait them Brandon, you beleive that cattle were more uniform than the low bred mongrels sired by cross bred bulls when????Before the advent of epd's or after???

My point is 30 years ago or more it was more of a business. They had breeding goals, cattle were predictable etc...With the advances made today if we had those men back we could bore with a big auger.
 
Don't give me any good old days nonsense. Most of the nation's cow herd 30 years ago were toadly little easy fleshing trouble free cows that gave a calf to sell every year. No thought was given to feedlot performance or final yield. The stuff that was winning shows 40-60 years ago would be USDA Small jokes in any stockyard today and their influence was still painfully evident in the nation's cow herds 30 years ago! Down here there was more straight brahman cattle than there are now.

Over the last 30 years we have gained weaning weight, have gotten rid of a lot of toads, we have less dairy influence cattle to deal with (sadly part of that is because we drink sugared water instead of milk), we had gotten too big and headed back towards moderation. Have dealt with excessive birth weights and endured new cattle fad after new cattle fad. At the end of the day I think there is no question that cattle are better now that at any time in this nation's history (as much as I would rather see more whitefaced cattle) and certainly better than they were 30 years ago.

Do we still have problems? Yes, we have more "hobby" cattle floating around than probably ever before, a more mongrelized cowherd that is harder to make decisions for, we still have a problems with overfat cattle, inefficient moosie cattle, lite muscling cattle, reproductive efficiency problems, BVD losses, and you could spend a day sorting all the flat ribbed, screw toed, coarse shouldered, splay toed, weak topped, or just plain structurally incorrect cattle out of a typical stockyard in the fall. I can certainly find fault with A LOT of today's cattle and I will admit we have ruined a lot of good herds by piss poor management and selection; but on the WHOLE I think the cattle are BETTER now than in 1995, 1985, or 1975 and it is very hard to lay the problems in the nation's herd at the feet of EPDs given that many of the worst herds I see aren't using any sires with EPDs.
 

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