ollie'":44e0romn said:
DOC HARRIS":44e0romn said:
- YOU ARE CORRECT! Stay tuned. I'll be back later.
DOC HARRIS
I'm back - 8 hours later!
You are right about cattle (or any other species) breeding as a result of " - - genetic selection" being a "powerful tool", - and EPD's are the 'nuts and bolts" of that genetic tool! How those nuts and bolts are put together and 'torqued' determines how the 'machine', if you will, ultimately functions and performs. Selecting breeding stock by phenotype ONLY will possibly take 25 -40 years, - and by incorporating EPD's it can be accomplished in 6 generations or less. As "they" say - do the math! Phenotype IS the embodiment of EPD's - good or bad, correctly applied or mis-used - -THERE they are, in ALL their glory, standing naked to the world!
DOC HARRIS
Doc, here is where we go our seperate ways. You take one fork and I take the other. We couldn't disagree more. By phenotype I narrowly mean body type. I dont' mean weights or epd's (although I mean weight more than epd's). I think mostly gone are the days were you could look at the J C Penny herd ( I am using them because I know you are familiar with them. I am not advocating that type and never saw them they were reported to me to be consistant)and know what kind of phenotype EVERY cow would be. There isn't a consistant phenotype program in many , if any , herds in the country. While I will grant you lots of herds have the same numbers , some will be big , some little , some pretty and some ugly. In each herd some will be productive and some will not. The reason for non productive cows in some of the more popular herds is :lets all say it together now "contemporary grouping". I wish I knew where there were consistant bred herds of cattle with the same phenotype cattle that I like and that I think will work in my herd. There are lots of herds that have a few cattle I like but few herds that have lots of cattle I like and very few to none that have all the type cattle I like. That is what I refer to when I say it takes a life time. I can build a set of numbers in a few generations but if I was using epd's to breed spots off of cattle how long would it take? I am not saying epds are completely worthless but in breeding a cattle with a certain visual phenotype they won't help. I find a certain type cattle work on my place , numbers or no numbers. They have to be deep, roomy, long spined , comfortable type cattle that are meaty with lots of width. What epd's will help me find them????
ollie' -
Once again we are confronted with the old Demon of "Misunderstanding". This type of situation has existed since the Tower of Babel! ollie', I am not at war with you in the discussion of Phenotype and Genotype! I take exception to your thinking that "we couldn't disagree more!"
Take notice of two phrases I used in my post of November 11, 12:21 P.M.: "YOU ARE CORRECT" and " . . .selecting breeding stock by phenotype
ONLY . . .! If we disagree at all it is by a degree of percentage only. I can't tell you how many times I have
stressed a "BALANCE" between Phenotype (looks) and Genotype (EPD's).
You mentioned J.C.Penny's Homeplace Herd. They were deep, roomy, long-spined (although too short-legged, as were most Beef cattle of that era), and EPD's were unknown at that time! The contention which seems to exist between Phenotype and Genotype should not be a factor at all! The debate, if you care to refer to it as that, should be a BALANCING ACT, as a Teeter-totter, and Phenotype and Genotype should be compatible and working TOGETHER - not in opposition to each other.
Your question in regard as to which EPD's will help you find "deep, roomy, long-spined, comfortable type cattle that are meaty with lots of width" can be answered two ways:
1) A well-balanced blend of ALL epd's.
2) Unfortunately, there are a number of physical or type traits which do not have EPD's capable of description or transmission as yet.
That sounds like a confliction, but the functional traits are being studied and worked on "as we speak" as the saying goes. If everything were perfect today, every breeder would have ALL his cattle in a single contemporary group, and all of the breeders problems and questions would be solved. That situation will NEVER happen in this life! Ergo, we continue to strive and struggle and think and become educated and aware of changes in thinking for the improvement of our beloved BUSINESS.
Dr. Harlan Ritchie has combined his thoughts and some explanations concerning this very subject, ollie', in a treatise which almost says it all. I say "almost" because no one will ever be capable in saying it all! Please log onto this site and read it. He says it far better than I, and I think that you will have to agree regarding - - KEEPING THINGS IN BALANCE.
http://www.msu.edu/~ritchie/papers/keep ... lance.html
DOC HARRIS