The - PERFECT - TERMINAL BULL!!

[DOC HARRIS]

This was posted on another thread, however I feel it is important enough to establish it on it own merit.

I have a question that I would appreciate being answered by ALL of the very knowledgeable Breeders and Producers on this Forum. There are experienced Purebred AND Crossbred Breeders who contribute to these posts, and I respect their thoughts and opinions very much.

Would you Ladies and Gentlemen please give me your unbiased opinion of what you consider the absolutely OPTIMUM Collection of Traits and Characteristics which you would accept for a Bull to be approved and acknowledged as being close to PERFECT as a TERMINAL Sire?

In your assessment, please include the MOST desirable EPD's - describe the MOST desirable phenotype which he should possess - and how his progeny should PERFORM and GRADE as a finished product, either on the rail, or in the meat case of the retail store. Please don't hold back, or hesitate to express your deep, heartfelt and honest opinion.

I have a DEFINITE purpose in asking for your help with this subject, and I hope that you will really just - let it ALL hang out! Tell me your honest to goodness true feelings.

Thank you very much!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Coyote]

Docile
Birth Wt 80-100 lbs
200 day wt 700 ( no creep)
finished at 365 days
carcass, Canadain Prime
live until he is 10 years old

 

[CattleAnnie]

(Doc, I origanlly posted this in response to your query when it was on the Red Char bull post, so copied it here in case you missed it.)

I'm only raising commercial cattle, and what I know about EPDs would fill a thimble, so although I do look at them when buying a new bull, my decisions tend to be based a little more on the phenotype of the animals I'm mulling over.

Having said that, if there was one deciding EPD for me would be Weaning Weight, due to the fact that my calves are sold when weaned, and my paycheque is based upon the weight (and quality) of the calves when they're standing on the scales in the auction ring.

As far as phenotype goes, I'd have to say that length is the foremost (more prime cuts), followed by thickness and then depth (given that the bull has proper legset, clean shoulders, good scrotal circumference and excellent feet).

Performance and grading? Well, we'd all like our stock to be efficient transformers of feed and grade Prime, but then I suppose that's to be expected. ;-)


Take care.

ps. Basically, a bull that can produce a calf that grows like this one.

 

[Frankie]

What percentage of cattlemen in the US do you think use "terminal sires?"

 

[DiamondSCattleCo]

Would you Ladies and Gentlemen please give me your unbiased opinion of what you consider the absolutely OPTIMUM Collection of Traits and Characteristics which you would accept for a Bull to be approved and acknowledged as being close to PERFECT as a TERMINAL Sire?

Oddly enough, not all that far off from what I'd consider to be a good herd sire. Doc, I cut and pasted from the thread I started a few weeks ago:

- Good feet. Claws of similar size that point ahead. Should be some space between them. Hoof should have some depth on the back part, and the pastern needs to have some flex to it to provide cushion when walking.

- I want to see the legs under the bull. When he stands, I don't want to see the back legs sticking out at an angle like a show horse. I want to see the bull collect himself when he walks. It means he'll be able to breed a large variety of frame size cows due to balance. My herd sire is the best walking bull I've ever seen. He's weighing in around 2600 lbs now, and he's bred everything from a 500 weight heifer (accident on the ranch I bough him from) up to my biggest cow (about 1600 lbs, not large).

- Testicles need to be even, hanging straight in a large sac. The sheath should be close to the body, not hanging loose. I don't worry too much about testicle size on a terminal, as long as his sperm count and motility is good.

- A terminal bull needs to be masculine, and there needs to be a crest on his neck. If your cows can handle it, I don't mind seeing a coarser front shoulder. Of course, a heavy, extremely well muscled hind end is a necessity

- I want some rib, both width and depth. I won't let a bull on the place if his leg length is equal to his depth. There must be more rib. I actually prefer about 1/3 leg, 2/3 rib although some think this is excessive. If the bull has good length, I'll forgive a little bit of missing rib as my cows have plenty. I like to see a healthy amount of brisket as well. Since its cold up here, I need the rib for fat deposits for wintering.

What else am I missing? I want his calves to grow 7 lbs/day on a snowball and a promise and grade in the top 2% :lol:

Seriously, I'll look at the bulls weaning weight and compare that to his yearling weight. I check what he's been fed and how much and if I like the lbs/day gain, I'm happy. I consider the "feedlot performance" (weight gain on feed combined with feed efficiency) to be the most important indicator of a terminal bull. I don't worry a whole bunch about his actual weaning weight.

I don't finish my animals here but as far as grading, of course I'd want to see his calves grade up at the top. However, if I can get a bull that tosses out extreme growth calves (finish in 10 months or something along those lines) with a very high feed efficiency, I'll take a slight hit on the grading. What I lose on grade, I make up for on feed savings.

Rod

 

[MikeC]

What percentage of cattlemen in the US do you think use "terminal sires?"

I don't think anyone can answer that question accurately.

Don't know how accurate this figure is either, but I recently read that 90% of all fats are crossbreds.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

What percentage of cattlemen in the US do you think use "terminal sires?"

Frankie - I think you missed my point. . . . .and I try to never answer a question WITH a question.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Kent]

Well, here goes.

EPDs:

BW: Moderate to slightly above breed average if used on cows only (and he should be).
CED: Average to above average
CEM: Inconsequential
WW: High
YW: High
Scrotal: Doesn't matter as long as HE is very fertile, but you probably still want a good solid scrotal EPD for that reason.
Milk: Inconsequential
Tot Mat: Inconsequential
Fat: Low (numerically)
REA: High
IMF: High

Of course, phenotypically, he should be long and tall and very thick, good feet and legs, depth of body, spring of rib, long from hooks to pins, square hipped, deep in the twist and flank, masculine, excellent libido, good disposition, stays in the pasture, and lasts at least six years.

 

[Frankie]

What percentage of cattlemen in the US do you think use "terminal sires?"

Frankie - I think you missed my point. . . . .and I try to never answer a question WITH a question.

DOC HARRIS

I didn't miss your point. But since I don't raise "terminal" sires, it occured to me to wonder how much demand there is for those bulls.

 

[rkaiser]

On the rail or in the meat case of a retail store Hey?

Not trying to twist this up to much Doc, but you could be talking about a few different perfects here you know.

I don't really know if the Cargill and Tyson are after the same perfect steer as some of the consumers are asking for. Seems that perfect means similar, while the consumer still loves a choice (and usually that means choice)

Anywho, here goes. I think that we have focused on size long enough in this industry, so I will start off by saying that the perfect terminal bull should be in the 2000 to 2200 pound range with the genotype to reach that mature weight at a youthful age. No more than three years of age. This early maturity will offer a number of advantages. Early maturing cattle show the ability to marble at a youthful age. Maturity should start to be expressed in this perfect bull at one year max, with muscle expression in his short neck and testicular development to match.

A masculine bull will throw calves with ability to express muscle, but most of all, this bull will get cows pregnant. Hard to be a perfect bull of any kind if you need two of him to do the job that one should.

Of course a perfect terminal bull will keep the calves birth weight moderate enough to see live calves without assistance, and he should have the genetic potential to rear calves that grow well and use the feed that is put in front of them efficiently. If EPD's are the tool of choice to gain these heritable traits, use them. If an open mind is able to see the benefits from studies on breeds, or composites that don't use EPD's, use them. Through all the years of trait selection for adg on momma and on feed, no breed has be shown to excel in feed efficiency or feed conversion. It still generally take 5 or 6 pounds of feed to put on one pound of steer.

One thing that makes a terminal bull attractive is his ability to sire calves with a high yielding carcass as well as marbling capabilities. Continuing to carve bark off cattle just to create a high marbling product is a bit of a lost cause. Continental cattle will limit the backfat genetically to a point, but another natural way is to choose a terminal sire with hair and hide which allow him the luxury of creating intramuscular fat while lessening his natural will to add subcutaneous fat. We may have altered the natural feeding of cattle by offering them a diet that allows them little more than to fatten, but the natural purpose of fat on any animal is ultimately warmth, or conservation of energy.

Back to the size thing for just a moment, and then I will cut this thing loose for everyone to have at er.

Remember who our customers are folks, at times I think our packers forget. We can't continue to chase that terminal bull up in size and frame which is ultimately what selection for adg does. Our average Canadian carcass went from 610 pounds in 1975 to 850 something in 2005. The average consumer in 2005 is attempting to watch his or her diet a lot more closely than the average consumer in 1975, and yes that consumer knows what a T bone, or a rib eye or a strip loin looks like. 8)

 

[cedar]

#1 - docile
#2 - birth wt. below 1
#3 - weaning wt. above average
#4 - yearling wt.above average
#5 - good confirmation
If you're producing bulls to sell, 99 .9% of that bulls offspring will end up as a terminal carcass on the rail.
;-)

 

[mtnman]

Black, thick.

mtnman

 

[Kent]

Come on, Doc. Tell us what this is for. What about your opinion on the perfect terminal sire? :cboy:

 

[ranchmgr]

It would depend on the cows!

 

[Ryder]

It would depend on the cows!

Good point.

 

[lakading]

#1 - docile
#2 - birth wt. below 1
#3 - weaning wt. above average
#4 - yearling wt.above average
#5 - good confirmation
If you're producing bulls to sell, 99 .9% of that bulls offspring will end up as a terminal carcass on the rail.
;-)

Libido/Fertility would be #1 for me.

Without fertility, all you have is a terminal steer.

 

[MikeC]

Libido/Fertility would be #1 for me.

How would one measure Libido in a young healthy bull?

And do you think it is correlated to Fertility?

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you all before now. I bought a new wireless mouse and keyboard setup, and had to practically move out of my office to get all the connections made to make it work - and then while I had all the desks and scanner and printer and file cabinet moved around - I had to vacuum and clean all around the wires and phone and TV connections - and my son came over with an upper back subluxation which I had to adjust and the cat - - -oh, yes - - the cat! The cat has no respect for important papers, and wires and connections, therefore I was ''out of commission" for several hours. But here I am.

Now, to get to the reason why I requested your input on the "Perfect Terminal Bull!"

Most of the answers were what I had hoped would be presented. A few of them were magnificently well done and thoroughly thought-out in advance. If you will read the posts relating to this subject, it becomes very plain that the IMPORTANT and CRITICAL considerations in choosing a TERMINAL BULL is for the primary purpose of producing calves which ultimately will be finished in a feedlot for the purpose of providing meat (Protein) for a pleasant eating experience by the consumer. All of the factors involved in the BU$INE$$ of producing those specialized calves are necesary to consider if one intends to make a profit of his efforts.

What I was hoping to see more than ANYTHING ELSE (AND almost did succeed) was the total absence of the mention of a specific Breed OR color, and the fact that the very IMPORTANT traits and characteristics of this commercial endeavor were mentioned by almost everyone without the words "color" or "breed" included in the answer indicates to me that "color" is NOT a deciding or operative consideration, (nor is "breed" either, by the way) when it comes right down to the REAL significance and priorities of selecting a TERMINAL BULL!"

Now - before everybody jumps on my bones for not mentioning their favorite breed, let me hasten to say that we should all have our own particular favorite breed or combination of breeds for all of the correct reasons - but - the significant point to remember here is; BREED and COLOR are NOT the major and momentous factors to be considered when attempting to improve your successes at the retail meat outlets and markets. This subject I suggested was instigated by the blather and arguments in another thread about one breed or another or one color or another being absolutely necessary for a successful terminal breeding operation. NOT!

Here is an example to contemplate: Given that ALL of the above-listed traits and characteristics are necesssary for Feedlot profits, if you will, - - what difference would it make if a Feedlot Steer being fed out for slaughter had a Green Hide and Green haircoat, and had ONE twisted Unicorn growing out of its head?? The hide and the horn and the breed has nothing to do with the $Profit in the Terminal Bu$ine$$.

NOW - -if you have a Registered Seedstock producing operation - -THAT is a horse of a different color!

Thanks for your great contributions. Every producer should copy these ideas and commit them all to memory. They are money-makers!

DOC HARRIS

 

[MikeC]

Doc, you statements are well taken but I think we must point out frame size and frame scores of feeder cattle and the influence of the bulls.

Everyone is on the hunt for frame 3-5 cattle that are purported to be more efficient. In order to have feeder calves that pay top dollar (in all the feeder calf reports I've seen) those calves need to be 6's (and sometimes 7-8's) and have good muscle scores.

Theoretically, it would take a frame 9 bull to make a 6 frame calf out of a frame 3 cow.

I guess this is why I have scratched my head consistently when bull buyers come to look at a pen of bulls and pick the "Biggest" one in the bunch each and every time. :?: :?: :?: :?:

A good Terminal Sire must make the growthiest/healthiest calves that you can raise given your resources.

 

[Frankie]

Here is an example to contemplate: Given that ALL of the above-listed traits and characteristics are necesssary for Feedlot profits, if you will, - - what difference would it make if a Feedlot Steer being fed out for slaughter had a Green Hide and Green haircoat, and had ONE twisted Unicorn growing out of its head?? The hide and the horn and the breed has nothing to do with the $Profit in the Terminal Bu$ine$$.

The "difference" is that several branded beef programs pay more for high quality cattle with black hides. Something like 40 products in beef counters use the word "Angus" in their name. You can certainly ignore that if you want, but that's one of the main reasons the nation's cow herd is turning black.