The New Simmental/Red Angus Association

[VanC]

[The % of angus blood in the pb simmis is irrelevent to me but like I said, Compare a modern day fullblood simmi here in America, an Angus here in America, and a pb simmi and see which two most closely resemble. The modern day pb simmi is more similar in phenotype to the Angus of any era than they are to any fullblood.

I want to make a point here that I don't think is often discussed. There is a big misconception as far as the math goes on % angus genetics in many of these crosses. When you constantly select for british breed traits, namely angus traits in these continentals you are actually propogating a much higher % angus traits than what the simply math of 1/4 or 1/8 or 1/16 blood says. The fact of the matter is that you are selecting animals that posses a much higher % of the angus genes therefore you may not be truely be breeding for instance a simmi, but something taht phenotypically and genotypically is MUCH closer to angus.

Yes and no. Any offspring gets half of it's genes from each parent. Period. It's how those genes randomly recombine that determines the phenotype of the offspring, not how many genes are passed on. You can select for certain phenotypical traits but that doesn't mean you have changed the genetic makeup of the animal. In other words, an animal that's 25% Angus and 75% Simmi could be closer phenotypically to Angus, but genotypically, it's still 25% Angus.

 

[redcowsrule33]

Actually, you are only guaranteed 50:50 on the F1 cross. After that, it's a mixed bag. Take this example:

Buy a bag of 100 green jellybeans and a bag of 100 red jellybeans. Take 50 out of each bag (like a sperm and egg would do with genes) and put them in a new bag. You have 50% green jellybeans and 50% red in the new bag. Now, group them together in groups of two that each has one green and one red (as genes do). Then randomly pick one jellybean from each pair and put them in a separate bag. Then add 50 more red jellybeans (like breeding to another purebred). Do you have 25% green and 75% red? You can have anywhere from 50% red and 50% green to 100% red. And anything in between. The random act of the genetic assortment keeps this from being a dilution problem and instead is a matter of statistics. So it is entirely possible for a breeder to keep selecting from phenotype individuals that keep more green jellybeans (genotype). Until there is a way to test an individual's entire genome you will not know in a "purebred, open herdbook" situation how many of it's genes came from one breed or the other.

 

[u4411clb]

Which is the exact reason why if you use an F1 bull on purebred cows you still can have a calf crop that is not uniform. And to what was stated earlier I don't think you can compare the change in Herefords or Shorthorns or Devons in the last 40 years to the change in Black Simmentals or Black Limos or Black Gelbveigh in the last 10 years. The change in the continentals in the last 10 years is much more than the English breeds in the last 40 years. And the easiest thing to change naturally in my opinion in cattle is size especially in 40 years time from the 70's till now. These Sim and Limo breeders have changed the complete character of their breeds since the late 90's and early 2000's not just size.

 

[Massey135]

:clap:

Which is the exact reason why if you use an F1 bull on purebred cows you still can have a calf crop that is not uniform. And to what was stated earlier I don't think you can compare the change in Herefords or Shorthorns or Devons in the last 40 years to the change in Black Simmentals or Black Limos or Black Gelbveigh in the last 10 years. The change in the continentals in the last 10 years is much more than the English breeds in the last 40 years. And the easiest thing to change naturally in my opinion in cattle is size especially in 40 years time from the 70's till now. These Sim and Limo breeders have changed the complete character of their breeds since the late 90's and early 2000's not just size.

:clap: :clap: "changed the complete character" . Well said. I just look at the black continentals as new stabalized composites.

 

[Jake]

Yes and no. Any offspring gets half of it's genes from each parent. Period. It's how those genes randomly recombine that determines the phenotype of the offspring, not how many genes are passed on. You can select for certain phenotypical traits but that doesn't mean you have changed the genetic makeup of the animal. In other words, an animal that's 25% Angus and 75% Simmi could be closer phenotypically to Angus, but genotypically, it's still 25% Angus.

I respectfully, but strongly disagree. Yes offspring get half of the genes from each parent. But there is HUGE difference between pedigree and genotype. And the entire point of selecting for phenotype is to change the genetic makeup. Your are selectin against genes that are undesirable. Therefore ridding of those genes and creating a genotype to match your prefered phenotype.

 

[VanC]

Yes and no. Any offspring gets half of it's genes from each parent. Period. It's how those genes randomly recombine that determines the phenotype of the offspring, not how many genes are passed on. You can select for certain phenotypical traits but that doesn't mean you have changed the genetic makeup of the animal. In other words, an animal that's 25% Angus and 75% Simmi could be closer phenotypically to Angus, but genotypically, it's still 25% Angus.

I respectfully, but strongly disagree. Yes offspring get half of the genes from each parent. But there is HUGE difference between pedigree and genotype. And the entire point of selecting for phenotype is to change the genetic makeup. Your are selectin against genes that are undesirable. Therefore ridding of those genes and creating a genotype to match your prefered phenotype.

Jake, I'm not a geneticist and my cattle experience pales next to yours so I will defer. Maybe I don't understand the difference between pedigree and genotype. Here's where I'm confused: It seems some folks are saying that the actual breed makeup can be changed depending on which traits are passed on to the offspring. Is that true? If a 1/2 Angus 1/2 Simmi cow is bred back to an Angus isn't the resulting calf always going to be 3/4 Angus and 1/4 Simmi regardless of it's phenotype? Thanks.

 

[dun]

Jake, I'm not a geneticist and my cattle experience pales next to yours so I will defer. Maybe I don't understand the difference between pedigree and genotype. Here's where I'm confused: It seems some folks are saying that the actual breed makeup can be changed depending on which traits are passed on to the offspring. Is that true? If a 1/2 Angus 1/2 Simmi cow is bred back to an Angus isn't the resulting calf always going to be 3/4 Angus and 1/4 Simmi regardless of it's phenotype? Thanks.

If only it was that simple. When you breed the 1/2 angus back to angus there is no way to know which gene of a pair that F1 is going to pass. It could pass the simmenthal half or the angus half so the resulting offspring could have all angus genes in a pair or 1 of each.

 

[VanC]

Jake, I'm not a geneticist and my cattle experience pales next to yours so I will defer. Maybe I don't understand the difference between pedigree and genotype. Here's where I'm confused: It seems some folks are saying that the actual breed makeup can be changed depending on which traits are passed on to the offspring. Is that true? If a 1/2 Angus 1/2 Simmi cow is bred back to an Angus isn't the resulting calf always going to be 3/4 Angus and 1/4 Simmi regardless of it's phenotype? Thanks.

If only it was that simple. When you breed the 1/2 angus back to angus there is no way to know which gene of a pair that F1 is going to pass. It could pass the simmenthal half or the angus half so the resulting offspring could have all angus genes in a pair or 1 of each.

So, theoretically, the calf could be 100% Angus even though it's dam was 1/2 Simmental? Using the same principal with purebreds, wouldn't that mean that pedigrees are pretty much useless?

 

[robert]

So, theoretically, the calf could be 100% Angus even though it's dam was 1/2 Simmental? Using the same principal with purebreds, wouldn't that mean that pedigrees are pretty much useless?

Pedigree tells you the road you have traveled, if you know the individuals in a pedigree you can have a good idea what to expect, whether the product is the careful stacking and concentrating of genetics or the continual outcross of type and kind with a random recombination resulting in a phenotypically desirable individual but a genetic time bomb of destructive forces below the surface. In the pedigree or purebred world understanding the combination of individuals and the methods of the breeder (and for that matter the integrity of the breeder) will determine which direction your herd will go, towards continual corrective matings generation after generation or towards stability of type and kind. Unfortunately the former is the 'hotter' 'sexier' 'progressive' route (though the irony of that 'progression' is lost on many) and the latter easily portrayed as being the anti- whatever approach.

 

[Isomade]

Jake, I'm not a geneticist and my cattle experience pales next to yours so I will defer. Maybe I don't understand the difference between pedigree and genotype. Here's where I'm confused: It seems some folks are saying that the actual breed makeup can be changed depending on which traits are passed on to the offspring. Is that true? If a 1/2 Angus 1/2 Simmi cow is bred back to an Angus isn't the resulting calf always going to be 3/4 Angus and 1/4 Simmi regardless of it's phenotype? Thanks.

If only it was that simple. When you breed the 1/2 angus back to angus there is no way to know which gene of a pair that F1 is going to pass. It could pass the simmenthal half or the angus half so the resulting offspring could have all angus genes in a pair or 1 of each.

Makes sense, one of my cows has more ear than the others, F1 Brangus, her first calf showed no leather at all. Her second calf looked like it was sired by a full blood brimmer, and this years calf again shows no ear whatsoever. All from the same char bull.

 

[angusdave63]

there is no quick answer to genetics and how it affects animals. i sold some steers today there was a set of twins in the group, they were angus char cross. i raised them from birth as well as there char mama. when they hit the scales one weighed 1415 the other 1185 same weight at birth within a pound or 2. both cut the same day, and i dont remember either one ever being sick a day in there lives. i felt one took it's growth from the char side the other from the angus.