The Murray Grey Bull

[DOC HARRIS]

Thanks for replying W.T.

This is where I'm depending on others Knowledge and experience.
My bull is not by any means overly masculine. But he expresses solid masculinity in his bull calves.
My bull is not overly feminine (in my mind) but expresses great femininity in his heifers.
At this point in my progression I would prefer more heifers and want them to be properly feminine with functional structure and longevity.
I know the cow is part of the mix, but I often wonder about the physiology of high masculine bulls creating quality feminine heifers versus a touch of feminine quality (or a little less masculinity) from the bull.
I Know for pounds which way I would go.
For useful heifers I'm just considering possibilities.

cmf1-

I am gratified by your statement that you are depending on others knowledge and experience! That is a giant step in any learning process. Most of us on this Forum are interested in helping dedicated producers to be the best that they can be. Knowledge and experience will lead the way in one becoming successful in any business!

My Opinion: You did "...miss something..." if you think that the white bull is post-legged. There is a fine line between being "acceptable", or optimal, and "unacceptable", or worthless as a seedstock candidate. The ability to differentiate betweeen the two extremes is an Art and a Science, and is capable of being learned by those who are truly interested in learning and thinking with an open mind, and willing to refuse to be "barn blind!" to the inadequacies of their own livestock. You appear to me to be eager to improve your business status!

The ability of an animal (male or female) to express traits and characteristics which will enhance their value through their progeny is determined by their Phenotype (their 'looks'), their Genotype (how they pass those traits on to their offspring by the combination of Dominate or recessive Genes,) and the accumulation of functional characteristics which affect the animal's function and longevity in the herd. An optimal BALANCE of those desirable features is what will determine whether a Beef Cattle operation is successfully profitable - or not.

The extensive investigative and explorative work which has been accomplished by Universiies and Agricultural Foundations has proven to be valid and convincing over time, ...IF... honesty and integrity are part of the formula! The primary objection that most disclaimers of Expected Progeny Differences (EPD's) being used for seedstock analysis have is that people are cheaters and dishonest, and will report inaccurate facts when giving information concerning their cattle and accompanying genetics. People being what they are, since Adam, I cannot deny the possibilty of those occurrences. All the more reason that a diligent cattle producer must consider every known factor possible in his selection protocols for future seedstock.

My point here, cmf1, is you seem to be on the right track in your thinking, but I think that you are splitting the hair too finely regarding Masculinity and Femininity (and other traits which are concommitant with those traits, such as low BW, Milk and increased calving difficulty due to reduced pelvic area) by disregarding some obvious Phenotype characteristics in your present bull, in spite of how he seems to reproduce those desirable traits.

It is important to consider the Murray Grey breed characteristic Standards in your evaluation of your bull.

BALANCE here is the key to ultimate success! I hope that I haven't confused you, as I seem to have done to some of the members of this forum recently.

DOC HARRIS

 

[waihou]

Thanks for your wise words DOC H, as always!
We have been breeding MG's for a few years now, and still consider we are learning and look to some of the stalwarts of the breed to advise us.
That is probably why we continue to show our stock, even though now sadly there are very few who show cattle and we have to compete in "All Breeds" classes alongside European breeds as well as "British Breeds" in the same class.
One good thing about this is the cattle for the most part are shown au naturel, with not a lot of feeding and fluffing and the judges are often either breeders of other breeds, or fatstock buyers-so their opinions are quite meaningfull-most of the time! As you say-it avoids the condition which you mention-being "barn blind"-and brings you back to reality!

I hadn't realised the 'white bull' was particularly postie, but perhaps I have been looking at other features more closely. I must say I have seen much worse-but as you mention, taking all things into consideration, including his EBV's (down under EPD's) as well as his phenotype we are pretty pleased with his first crop.
His BW is +3.2 to breed std +3.1, 82% accuracy
Milk +4 to breed std +3,
200day +27 to breed std +18
400 day +37 to breed std +41
600 day +51 to breed std +42
Here are a some of his calves.

Oh, and his first crop of calves included two sets of twins, from cows that have never had twins in their background. Does this mean we may expect more?!
Actually both cows, aged 9 and 11, had the calves unassisted, and they were just there when we checked the next morning, they accepted and raised both to 8 months of age without any help from us! The old girl weighed 530kgs when she weaned her heifers, and the calves weighed 502kgs-not a bad effort for an old girl! Sadly she went off on the 'works' truck after weaning, but one of her twins will stay to carry on her bloodline-if she proves herself!

 

[agmantoo]

Here is my Murray Grey. He is running with ~ 100 cows/heifers year round on grass alone.

 

[cmf1]

I told you how much I liked him when you posted him a while back.
Doesn't look like he's done anything but thicken.

I was looking at some Eagles Run stock recently but shipping is an absolute killer from there to here.

 

[cmf1]

No Doc,
I don't find you confusing at all in this post.
In fact you're straight on the point of my reason for the post.
You were kind enough to say that I was overlooking "phenotypical charachteristics" instead of pointing out what specifically you saw as unacceptable.
Laundry list them.
I can take it. This bull doesn't define who I am. He's just a tool in my box.
I might even agree on some points.
I'm guessing we would have to argue a bit on pin to hook slope.

As far as his other points, I have to admit that the first feature that I look for in a bovine is heart girth and silver dollar sized nostrils on a big flat nose. Heart lung capacity and the ability to feed them.
This to me is the most functional trait cattle can possess. Possibly to the point that I may overlook what I feel are less functional traits.
Secondly balance and topline. When I bought this bull as 16 month old he appeared to me to be more balanced than what he has become. His length is good but his failure to maintain what looked like a growthy rear end is a bit of a let down.
Thirdly I would like that package on the shortest legs possible. Sound legs just under the outer edges of their body.
feet, eyeset, and some whorls are important.
As far as Expressed Progeny Differences, I prefer Visual Progeny Apparent.
I do look at BW, WW,and YW. CE. and am leery of accuracy.
I believe milk has to do with environment as well as heredity. And if I can see the calves that are eating the milk I'll draw my own conclusions.
I would not buy a bull without a BSE.
I'm still exploring the concept of scrotal attachment as it relates to udder quality. I think there's much more to that than what I previously did.
There's more to it, but if I get that far and it's good it's hard to stay focused on the minutia. But I try.

Agree or disagree that's an honest assessment of my approach. And I missed something with this guy. I think.
Thing is though, I am more than willing to be swayed with evidence or experience to the contrary.
That's what I'm looking for.
And the masculine/feminine thing is just a concept that crossed my mind and made me wonder so I said it out loud as a possibility for this bull out producing himself .
Because this is a forum.
For discussion.

 

[Brightview]

You say he is a stud bull. In my experience with MG's, this bloke would easily be graded as a MGxAngus. His dark coat is not, in my opinion, indicative of the steel MG's. I also concur with his lack of masculinity, especially with his poll/neck. BUT, having said that, he should make a great terminal, looking at his rear end and topside muscling.

 

[cmf1]

Here's a purebred bull calf 18 days old. To young to judge but I like him anyway.

 

[waihou]

I know it is just one more opinion, but what are your opinions on these findings?
http://www.bovineengineering.com/linear_male.html

 

[cmf1]

I think Gerald is an encyclopedia of trait characteristic effect on progeny. (as well as "all things bovine")
I've spoken with him over the phone on occasion and I am amazed at how he has, and continues to, study every inch of an animal and can give you a logical explanation of cause, effect, and functionality of everything from the tip of the switch to the tip of the tongue and all that's attached in between.
Whether I ruffle any feathers or not I consider him to be as valuable a source of usable information as Dr. Bonsma.
The only problem with all of this information available on functional, fertile, and marketable animals is applying it to real life availability of animals.
I have to enumerate what I feel is most important and check off as far down the list as I can go.
It's difficult to find that perfect beast when your budget and real life get in the way of your vision.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

I have been reading these posts on this thread with great interest, and have come to realize that a slip of the "pinky finger' can result in a classic misunderstanding 'war' where none exists. I have experienced situations similar to this several times before on this forum, and today, Mother's Day, I have decided to let my past thoughts on this thread, and the subject at hand, speak for themselves. At the moment I don't feel up to attempting to go into minute detail to explain minutiae that is really obvious anyway.

I will comment on the pictures of your bull, cmf1. These three pictures of him exemplify exactly why decisions regarding seedstock selections should not be made from pictures - ONLY! In this particular case, they create a "Conundrum". ("...a puzzling question or problem"). He presents an "ambiguity" (having two or more possible meanings - not clear, uncertain, indefinite, vague, obscure). I feel convinced that he is the same bull in these three pictures because of the number "3" and other markings on his hip, but he certainly gives the appearance that he is two different animals - the different time lapse period between pictures notwithstanding.

All in all, I have certainly seen worse herd bulls, but not knowing the phenotype or genotype of the cow herd, there are no definitive conclusions at which to arrive insofar as mating suggestions are concerned.

Happy Mother's Day to ALL. (If I don't get outside and eliminate a few weeds in our yard - NOW - before our Family, et al, arrives for a Happy Mother's Day experience, ol' Doc is going to be in big "Happy Day" do-do)! Bye-bye!

DOC HARRIS

 

[backhoeboogie]

You say he is a stud bull. In my experience with MG's, this bloke would easily be graded as a MGxAngus. His dark coat is not, in my opinion, indicative of the steel MG's. I also concur with his lack of masculinity, especially with his poll/neck. BUT, having said that, he should make a great terminal, looking at his rear end and topside muscling.

Wow! Not that I know the breed. I would have to respectfully disagree. This dude is just to slick to have angus in him.

I would prefer smoother shoulders on a bull but I would give this guy a try.

 

[cmf1]

Boogie,
I've got you down for birth announcements next year.
This is one of the new entries on his dance card.
Dog gentle, Full bodied, and pure bred registered.
The pups will be golden certified F1

 

[3waycross]

I don't know poop about eared cattle but I'd keep her around just to look at and scratch once in a while.

 

[Wisteria Farms]

This was one of my bulls at the Ohio Beef Expo (shown at 11mos)... keep in mind, he's NOT out of show stock! We breed beef and just show for fun.

Rather than tell you what I don't like about yours, just thought I'd show you what I do like (although these arent the best pictures). I think the first picture of your bull is better, obviously, but did he come off a bull test? He looks very well "fed" (first pic). Don't take any comments here too hard... the point is that YOU learn and YOU get better at selecting. My herd of Murray Greys (my cows) are starting to look very uniform... and I'm loving it. You'll get there in time too!

Same bull at home "practicing"

And this is our herdbull at 3 1/2 years old... (last fall)...and he is nicknamed Doc :tiphat:

 

[Wisteria Farms]

I don't know poop about eared cattle but I'd keep her around just to look at and scratch once in a while.

3way....I was thinking the same thing. THATS JUST A NEAT COW!

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

cmf1 - your bull was in a high BCS when you bought him, and he is in a low BCS now. He's not drastically thin by any means, but "thinness" really makes them look unbalbanced.
He has nice clean front shoulders, and stands really wide. I do not like the slope of his butt or high flank.
Waihou - I really like your bull. He is in just about perfect BCS.
Wisteria - I like your bull. Your "son"? has him set up pretty good at home, but has him spread out too far in the show ring (front & back feet not square under him).
There used to be another "Jeanne" on here that had really GREAT MG's. Always very impressive.
I do not agree with the "liniar" assessments - but, that's just my personal opinion.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

You say he is a stud bull. In my experience with MG's, this bloke would easily be graded as a MGxAngus. His dark coat is not, in my opinion, indicative of the steel MG's. I also concur with his lack of masculinity, especially with his poll/neck. BUT, having said that, he should make a great terminal, looking at his rear end and topside muscling.

Wow! Not that I know the breed. I would have to respectfully disagree. This dude is just to slick to have angus in him.

I would prefer smoother shoulders on a bull but I would give this guy a try.

angus can slick off like that....... just as slick as brangus as far as hair coat

 

[Wisteria Farms]

Jeanne,
Thanks... and no that's not my son (I have all girls) but he's just LIKE a son to us. You probably didn't see some of my older posts prior to going to Ohio... we were asking what to pay your showstring help. This kid was great to come work with them on a regular basis and help us out so we took him to Ohio. Yes, I know he was too stretched out in the showring but compared to what I WOULD DO :lol2: , it was fine. I don't expect to win anything because we don't breed show stock and we're not die-hard showers... we just choose our thickest and most balanced animals to take and hope for the best. Its really just to network and visit with friends. Thanks for the compliment... we like him too! He had the highest weaning weight of last years bulls and showed the most muscle development in his hind quarters so we liked this fella from the time he was a baby.Then as icing on the cake, his GeneStar results came back absolutely phenominal... so, we decided we're going to put him on Doc's (the older bull's) daughters.

 

[cmf1]

In the next week or so I'm taking a purebred offspring to butcher and getting the local university to give me carcass info relative to averages. That'll be the final determining factor for me.
The half bloods were smooth and tasty indeed.
Jeanne, I still am not as concerned with the slope, but I the high flank is a flaw in my eye as well.
Angie, good to hear from you also. Looks like you're growing leaps and bounds. When you gonna get all these associations to get together and make one big happy family. ;-)
Just kidding, I know family feuds leave deep wounds.
Thanks for the input.

 

[Wisteria Farms]

Well, as a matter of fact, I'm glad you asked that! As of last week I told my Midwest breeders that I'm working on behalf of ALL Murray Grey breeders now... not just AMGA. I don't care WHAT association you belong to... you're going to get my help promoting your farm whether you want it or not! haha. On a serious note though, yes the family wounds do run deep and sometimes it just takes that one relative that loves you no matter what... thats me!! I don't care who you are or where you send your money, if there's something I can do for you (help you sell an animal, design a website, WHATEVER) I'll do it, free, because I love my breed....If we ALL had that mind-set can you imagine what we could do???