The ins and outs of AI.

[Ebenezer]

They never made a he-man western with John Wayne AIing cows.

AIing heifers has become less attractive to me in recent years. I want real, proven, know-what-I'll-get type breedings and only want to waste time and money on farm raised cows that are work and wear types that do their job for year after year. It is a matter of real versus promotion to me. I want to increase the good or trial an unknown potential and cull the bad. Honestly, the best results of AI have been solid farm raised cows that fit the environment, and then the second generation (25%AI influence) is the jewel.

Ebenezer, I need help adapting my cows to the environment here. Can you advise me on a bull that will produce traits that includes gills, webbed feet and scales. It has rained here for 40 days and 40 nights. Every winter seems to get worse. I either need to build an Ark or start breeding my cows for an aquatic environment.

You just described water buffalo. I have seen the feet on English and Continental breed bulls in Louisiana look like death warmed over by age 3. There is a short life waiting for the majority of those bulls in swampy and boggy areas. The ear crossed mamas do better. That is merely an observation and not a recommendation.

 

[Ebenezer]

I'm not an ABS person, have used some. Post from chocolate cow made me go look at the 2016 sire directory don't have 2017. They must have changed there lineup 100% some pretty good looking bulls in there to me. Maybe dising Angus, or ABS or a good bull is in the eye of the beholder.

Try Bonsma selection for a standard. Or offer a proven standard of selection with better economic returns to the commercial producer.

It would help the whole industry to have cow-like cows and bull-like bulls and eliminate the "oh whoa is me I am so busy being busy" and the huff and puff of registered cattle today. The "otion" problem: Motion, promotion and commotion. Forget the prefixes and the dollar talk, the wonderful old great granddam was a $250,000 cow and really raise some decent cattle for the beef market and for the betterment of the commercial producer.

Let's see: laying hens for eggs are either linebred or line crossed for a single purpose, sheep are line crossed for terminal market from maternal and terminal lines, hogs are line crossed for the terminal market from maternal and terminal lines, broilers and market turkeys are line or breed crossed for the terminal market, dairy cows are linebred for milk production and nobody ever refuses to use a good dairy bull because he is ugly as his use is for single use selection of functional females for that industry.

Beef folks: still think that looking through a catalog of bulls with great terminal EPDs and a few pictures of daughters that happened to breed in spite of long term terminal selection is a modern practice? Duh-h-h! What if: cows were from maternal lines and terminal bulls were from the offered terminal lines to actually be competitive with other protein sources that make us look like economic dunces?

Just sayin'! :lol2:

 

[bse]

That was a pretty broad statement for just a couple of bulls in the ABS sire directory.

Ebenezer, I myself use alot of Sinclair stuff the older stuff they have done all the linebreeding and proven what they can do, newer stuff it's still a bit early to tell for me. A prefix means nothing to me, I want momma cows and probably use a few bulls that some may not even look at. I use some Boss who I think makes great females, but ccouldn't sell a bull out of him if I wanted to, so I do use a few front line bulls that may produce a good bull or heifer. For around here if you don't use bulls folks recognize, you can't move them, right or wrong!! So for me I have to balance a few things to make them marketable.

 

[Chocolate Cow]

You may consider it a broad statement but I used those two bulls as an example of what I saw.

 

[Ebenezer]

That was a pretty broad statement for just a couple of bulls in the ABS sire directory.

Ebenezer, I myself use alot of Sinclair stuff the older stuff they have done all the linebreeding and proven what they can do, newer stuff it's still a bit early to tell for me. A prefix means nothing to me, I want momma cows and probably use a few bulls that some may not even look at. I use some Boss who I think makes great females, but ccouldn't sell a bull out of him if I wanted to, so I do use a few front line bulls that may produce a good bull or heifer. For around here if you don't use bulls folks recognize, you can't move them, right or wrong!! So for me I have to balance a few things to make them marketable.

I understand. There are cattle and bulls I like and would use but I know that the offspring will not sell well. I would assume, and honestly do not know, that you would say that your cattle are doing most things well. Or if they are too moderate for buyers, maybe they are more maternal in type with improved fertility but less presentation of terminal type muscling and growth. Again, I do not know. The use of outside, mainstream, AI catalog or terminal bulls to make sale cattle on home raised females: that is very common. It is not a crime nor do I assume it is. It does highlight other herds, prefixes and sources rather than the old bland information that I would give that these are multi-generational animals from here. Mine is not a high dollar statement. I have made a few of those high growth AI bulls from home cows and they sell well. The buyer always wants the biggest one in the pen. I do not mention the sire unless they ask but they get performance data. Most would know as little about an AI bull in a catalog as I do.

Commercial herds are looking for different things. Some keep replacement heifers, some buy in cows, some sell all at weaning and some hold back and feed. What we all know. There is no one source that can serve every one of these for maximum potential returns. I never assume that I can help but a fraction of any of them.

I am looking for environmental fit, hitting commercial markets with calves that are acceptable to order buyers, good females and best returns. Returns are largely made on less spent that earned. I do not fit in the broad sale of terminal bulls nor am I a competitor of bull test stations or farms that have those type programs. I can think of no where better to go and buy a terminal bull at a decent price than at a bull test station or a farm where bulls have been pushed if I wanted a terminal bull as long as they were not ruined by the feeding effort. If a person calls or asks, I ask to know what they want and direct them to breeders of mainline or terminal types if they merely want pounds from bought-in cows.

I do understand that the average producer in the beef industry is doing the opposite of all other protein producing competitors and it is not good for the beef industry or producer profits.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I do understand that the average producer in the beef industry is doing the opposite of all other protein producing competitors and it is not good for the beef industry or producer profits.

So you are proposing more separation between maternal and terminal lines?

 

[frieghttrain]

I'm not an ABS person, have used some. Post from chocolate cow made me go look at the 2016 sire directory don't have 2017. They must have changed there lineup 100% some pretty good looking bulls in there to me. Maybe dising Angus, or ABS or a good bull is in the eye of the beholder.

Try Bonsma selection for a standard. Or offer a proven standard of selection with better economic returns to the commercial producer.

It would help the whole industry to have cow-like cows and bull-like bulls and eliminate the "oh whoa is me I am so busy being busy" and the huff and puff of registered cattle today. The "otion" problem: Motion, promotion and commotion. Forget the prefixes and the dollar talk, the wonderful old great granddam was a $250,000 cow and really raise some decent cattle for the beef market and for the betterment of the commercial producer.

Let's see: laying hens for eggs are either linebred or line crossed for a single purpose, sheep are line crossed for terminal market from maternal and terminal lines, hogs are line crossed for the terminal market from maternal and terminal lines, broilers and market turkeys are line or breed crossed for the terminal market, dairy cows are linebred for milk production false-Dairy cows are inbred enough we try to keep that to a minimum and nobody ever refuses to use a good dairy bull because he is ugly as his use is for single use selection of functional females for that industry. true
Beef folks: still think that looking through a catalog of bulls with great terminal EPDs and a few pictures of daughters that happened to breed in spite of long term terminal selection is a modern practice? Duh-h-h! What if: cows were from maternal lines and terminal bulls were from the offered terminal lines to actually be competitive with other protein sources that make us look like economic dunces?

Just sayin'! :lol2:

 

[Ebenezer]

I do understand that the average producer in the beef industry is doing the opposite of all other protein producing competitors and it is not good for the beef industry or producer profits.

So you are proposing more separation between maternal and terminal lines?

I have forgotten the multiplier, but fertility is __ times more economically important than growth. I found it:

Cow herd reproductive potential is 10 times more important than calf growth traits and 20 times more important than calf carcass traits to herd profitability because without reproduction and a live birth calves aren't produced and don't grow.

http://cattletoday.com/archive/2013/October/CT2997.php

So where is the main huff and puff in beef production and marketing?

If you are a purebred breeder you are taught to leer at AI bulls and drool over bulls and cows of given herd prefixes. A high priced ancestor or a show winner really makes a cow luscious and a bull extra tempting. Then if the "right people" are using something linked, Oh WOW! No animal has to have high accuracy just be a fad which is often a passing fad. Just buy the semen, use it and if it fails then you can be comforted to know that a lot of other progressive folks tried and failed with you. But some particular extreme EPD is important so that you can be a breed leader.

Commercial breeders have been schooled for decades that "pounds is where it is at". If you want to be really progressive you seek the best of carcass traits to add to the pounds with a blind eye to convenience traits such as udders, feet and legs. And the "best bull" is always the biggest one. Thus bull test stations cull the bottom and sell only the big boys and the "best". There is nothing better than a performance tested bull that has proven his worth .... or so they say.

What is the average bull in a bull test station? It is a bull sired by a bull that is known for terminal traits from a cow family with above average growth and carcass traits to keep the entered bulls from being in the bottom cut or having bad performance and measurements. So, the generation types stack like this: terminal, terminal, terminal, terminal, ...

I admire folks who see the problem. Some see it as a way to raise and promote duckbutt type cattle as protest types and to sell them they have to ignore sale barn prices and build hype on "efficiency" of the cow. Good enough but if we go broke being efficient and raising cattle that will only work in a minority nitch market then the majority of breeders of the "little boys" will go broke trying to be anti-standard breeders. Raising cattle in the right way is not a protest march against the establishment but should be for the good and income of the grower and his farm or ranch.

Cow herd reproductive potential is 10 times more important than calf growth traits and 20 times more important than calf carcass traits to herd profitability because without reproduction and a live birth calves aren't produced and don't grow.

So, does this 20X or 10X seem to favor terminal or maternal? I will assume that if you or I go to the places where we sell cattle and ask they can tell us a frame size that the order buyers want. So we can learn an appropriate sized animal for maximum returns. Then we make a personal decision: would I rather have $10 than $1 or maybe even $20 rather than $1?

We have established a frame size, a motivator and now we need highly fertile cattle. HP in Angus tell us about the initial breeding of a heifer but no more. Pathfinder tells us a bit about fertility but not fully about production. The weaning ratio on the calves of a pathfinder have to be above 100%. That is fine if the breeder is culling the bottom end enough to keep all weaning weights tight. But there are monkeys at the zoo. And, anyway, weaning weights have nothing to do with my extra $9 or $19. Somebody tell me about stability in other breeds- is it accurate and based on whole herd reporting?

Bottom line: we are doing the same things over and over again and losing protein market share and are not maxing out farm income. So after a rambling rant of the deranged: do we need to focus on maternal lines and means to select for the best of maternal lines?

 

[Stocker Steve]

I used to make sure all my cows were half Hereford to insure more mothering and outstanding fertility. I think the wf F1 is the equivalent of the sex inked laying hen. :nod:
Since then I have been trying to bred and select for specific maternal traits What numbers or areas do you focus on?

 

[Ebenezer]

I used to make sure all my cows were half Hereford to insure more mothering and outstanding fertility. I think the wf F1 is the equivalent of the sex inked laying hen. :nod:
Since then I have been trying to bred and select for specific maternal traits What numbers or areas do you focus on?

Crossbreeding is the cheap boost to female fertility every time. But do like you did: know that it is a result in the cows that you want and find good pure animals to make more of them as needed.

The cows are not the priority if you look at cow/calf or seed stock from an economic perspective. Sorry to pop that balloon. The key to income is the economical production of forages and feed. Bonsma has chapter(s) on environment, soil, pH, fertility and so much and he is right. Don't expect to grow polar bears in Florida: not enough seals for them to eat for one thing!

Are you willing and able to change or modify the soil fertility and pH (others now use the term "soil health" a lot) to grow what you need to feed what you think you want to grow? If it takes time for you to change the soil and the plants and to afford the changes then the livestock will change with the forages or you will recognize that it might be cheaper to supplement at times rather than try to "change the world". Supplement: example - lambs in fall slump.

This could be long but I will not do that. I am in an area that grew cotton as a monoculture for 100+ years. Most of the original topsoil is in the bottom of the Charleston harbor. Natural pH is low, natural soil fertility is moderate to low, humid summers and parts of winter are humid so OM can be low, heat, bugs, SE USA. First plants needed to be some that would stick around. With soil tests and planned doses of lime and chicken litter the soil had a jump start to do more than it ever did with commercial fertilizers. The bedrock forage for cheap winters here is fescue. But my focus of forage production is legumes to both feed the fescue and the summer grasses but to add protein and food value while allowing some dilution of fescue results. We tried novel fescues to lose money and stands. The easy answer: cows that would show resistance to fescue toxicity on what we had to feed them. Some trial and error, cull poor AI results and throw out the rest of that semen, build on productive cows and reinforce the genetics with home grown sons. I seek genetics that have fescue resistance if I can to trial.

I know numbers. They work here. They would not work for you. They will not work for others as others will be better managers than me, have better or worse or different conditions and limitations or throw gobs of money while I toss pennies. Better than numbers: visually recognize better animals via Bonsma. Sort of the bovine tea leaves. Basically: bulls = masculine and can transmit masculine to sons and feminine to daughters. Cows = look like cows and not like feedlot steers and can breed on time, produce as easy keepers (labor/problems) and live a long life doing so.

If you are proud of beefy heifers or cows that look like battleships and bulls are great due to numbers, price or sources- please ignore me. You are chasing a rabbit I refuse to chase. One greyhound wins every race but none ever catch the rabbit.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Did the liming and inter seeding legume thing. Not effective because my bluegrass and quack sod was too dense.
Did the renovation and applied K thing. Worked operationally, but very costly. A possible approach for stockering, but not cows.

Did the bale graze/cover crop/inter seeding thing. Worked a bit too well since I ended up with surplus grass and lots of manure weeds. You can really move the needle on OM and soil fertility in 1 year. Don't assume it takes ages and lots of iron.

Doing experiments with a low till bale graze/cover crop/RR soy bean/reseeding thing. Seems to be a good balance if you can make $ off oats (straw) and soy beans. I did in 2016.

Right or wrong - - going this hard after forage production takes pressure off of the cow. High breed back on heifers. Teeth optional on old cows unless they are really hard doers. So, this grazing on supplement system raises the question on what kind (of mix) to seed and graze. Moving more towards grazing red clover with yearlings and letting it reseed itself.

 

[Simbeef10]

I know what you mean. I have been breeding with 80s-90s genetics and a few 70s to get what I want. It can be difficult to find the semen you want, but be diligent and ask as it is still out there either with other AI companies or in individual's tanks.

 

[svaughn]

Just looked at my ABS Spring catalog also. Not excited about much except for conneally counselor. He is not displayed in the catalog only mentioned in the Sire Alliance Data. Has anyone used or know anything about him or his calves?

 

[Lazy M]

Just looked at my ABS Spring catalog also. Not excited about much except for conneally counselor. He is not displayed in the catalog only mentioned in the Sire Alliance Data. Has anyone used or know anything about him or his calves?

I've asked about him a few times over the years and it's always been unavailable. Would like to try him, but he reportedly is not a very good semen producer..

 

[Lucky_P]

svaughn,
Counselor was strongly recommended to me by a now-deceased veterinary repro specialist friend who'd grown up in the Shorthorn breed, but had been an Angus breeder for decades. He told me that Counselor would sire great daughters with good udders and very good foot/leg structure.

Looked through the new ABS catalog last night - saw Counselor mentioned, but not listed. New addition, with no photo - I don't recall the bull's name - is an AbsoluteXCounselor... might be worth watching...

 

[svaughn]

Thank you for the insight. I called my just recently retired ABS Rep tonight and he highly recommended Counselor. He agreed with your friend about his ability to sire great daughters and pass on good feet and legs. He said he had a lot of popularity 2-3 years ago but he was not able to produce enough semen for the demand. He was of the belief that he would be available now. I was able to find him for sale in the Hoover Angus 2017 Sire Directory located in the January Angus journal. I'm gonna give him a shot. His numbers are solid not over the top and I'm always looking for a cow maker that can improve soundness. Again Thank you

 

[Beefeater]

I've got a Counselor heifer ready for weaning now and another cow bred to Counselor due in a few months. The heifer calf is a tad standoffish, but I attribute this to her mother more than anything. Not a scale masher by any means, but everything looks good so far. We used Counselor with the intent to make moderate framed cattle with generally balanced traits (do want a bit more RE and Marb). Guess we'll have a better idea in a few years!

There are several progeny selling in Hoover's upcoming sale. The videos are all online to get a better idea of what they might look like.