The Challenge

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

As regards ww growth, breed average. BETTER THAN BREED AVG
Less than average BW WHY? as long as there is no calving issues & bulls sold don't have calving issues.

Less then average mature height. Why? size of cattle depend on your environment & natural nutritional ability for your land. A good size on my farm, might never survive on Dun's or 3-Way's.

Less than average mature weight. Again same as above.

Things I want to be more than average , I wouldn't want to be percieved as a total under achiever.

Fertility, as much as possible, I am a glutton, both sires and dams, is there such a thing as too much. Never too much - except for twinning (I HATE TWINS) Culling poor breeders for 40 years, I have fertile myrtles.

Structural soundness of feet, as the average Angus anymore is very poor footed. A must in all breeds and/or crossbreeds (total skeletal soundness)

Udder quality, above average for sure. Quality of udder is important - but the AMOUNT of milk production, again, depends on your environment & available resources. We used to have TOO MUCH milk - not too much for BCS or rebreeding - but too much for a newborn to handle. Have just right now.

Disposition as good as possible with out compromising maternal protectiveness and attentiveness. Absolutely

Mothering ability, can you have too much? don't think so

Calving ease, more than average. ?? as long as you have no calving issues. I don't want a "dink" calf to achieve CE. I want as large a calf as the cow can EASILY handle.

Constitution, more than average, seems the really growthy calves are quite often more prone to get sick than the average calves, probably mother natures desire for average. Not sure where you came up with that conclusion. The more growthy calves could be more prone to get over-eating disease or bloat on legumes. "Murphy's law" tends to always make the "freak" disasters happen to our "best" ones.

Longevity, as much as I can get, I think. Longevity is great. That all goes back to structural soundness, fertility, good udders & disposition.

Hair coat, for sub arctic weather, more than average. Location, location

Maternal attentiveness, a trait that seems to be waning. In the seventies and eighties the Black cows either were always with their calves, or knew where their calves were at all times. When you showed up and it was time to go they would go get their calves and they would stay mothered up through the entire move regardless of distance. ?? guess my cows are plenty attentive - never considered this an issue.

For breeding bulls above average for a clean tight sheath, definitely no
long loose pendulous sheaths. And no tolerance for bulls that prolapse there prepuce. OK

Libido, above average. OK

Servicing ability, above average for agility and athleticism. Definately - goes back to structural soundness & libido

And last, but not least, the ability to do all of the above under a management system who's profit strategy is optimal productivity utilizing the most cost effective regionally accessible inputs. YUP

So in light of that multi selection emphasis, my experience has been that finding all of those in one package is almost impossible. I don't think so - takes time & management & paying attention to details.

So the question becomes what are you willing to compromise and what system in terms of accessing degree of specific trait improvement required vs degree of specific trait compromise you can risk, are you going to employ?

To me this is the ongoing challenge with breeding stock selection especially when it comes to sires because of the degree of proportional population impact.

Doc, your thoughts and the thoughts of anyone else who wants to wade in would be appreciated. :tiphat:

I breed every cow for FEMALES. Bulls are a side-line. If we get some great male calves & they meet our standards to be breeders, we leave them in-tact - usually less than 10%. I do not jump thru hoops to get the best carcass EPD's. We analyze all breeding stock PHENOTYPICALLY first, then GENOTYPIC.

At first, I disagreed with Doc's comments about "show herds" being in a different catagory. On second thought, (taking my herd out of the equasion) - there are some really really extreme "show herds" that could never be lumped in with commercial herds. Also,I think we would have to have a 4th catagory - extreme Purebred herds. There are some herds that could NEVER be lumped into any of these catagories.

My herd is where I want it to be. Sure, there are some things we could "tweek" about this one or that one - but as a HERD, I feel we have those important traits - possibly sacrificing some carcass traits - but I don't think so, since our steers are in demand by repeat feedlot buyer. Do I have some cows that could be better? I sure hope so! If I think my cows are perfect, I might as well quit being a breeder.
So, on your comment "my experience has been that finding all of those in one package is almost impossible". I don't think it is impossible. You need to set goals & guidelines that are acceptable to YOU & YOUR MANAGEMENT & YOUR ENVIRONMENT & RESOURCES. And have fun achieving your goal - which, hopefully, is always evolving.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Jeanne, good reply.

You say,

"If I think my cows are perfect, I might as well quit being a breeder."

I assume this is an acknowledgement that there is always room for improvement.

You then say, "So, on your comment "my experience has been that finding all of those in one package is almost impossible". I don't think it is impossible.".

Are you saying with every bull you use and raise there is nothing you would change? If so good for you.

If this is the case then it makes your selection much easier than mine because I have yet after 27 years not used a bull yet that didn't force me to compromise on one thing or another from the list above.

Now if the bulls you have been using, for how ever long it has been that your bulls have been the complete package, why is there anything left to improve with your cows?

There seems to be a contradiction in your reply.

Depending on ones goals and guidelines it may well be that one has "arrived" with their cattle so to speak, and relative to those goals and guidelines nothing needs to be tweeked, to use your word.



In the process of getting to the point where only very minor tweeking is all that is required, along the way I assume you made decisions with sire selection where you didn't get every thing you wanted in one bull and so my question relative to that process still remains, "what were you willing to compromise from the list of functional maternal traits listed and what system in terms of accessing degree of specific trait improvement required vs degree of specific trait compromise you were prepared to risk, did you employ?". As an accomplished breeder I am sure this will be simple for you to answer.

Regarding your comment "?? guess my cows are plenty attentive - never considered this an issue", in response to maternal attentiveness this may not be an issue for you for a number of reasons. Over the last 16 years I have had the opportunity to speak with cattle producers across Canada, in Wyoming, Colorado, and Montana. From 13,000 head cow herds to 50 head cow herds, at the very least 1200 producers and without exception cows that lose track of there calves in the process of herd moves resulting in calf and cow run backs is an issue. Probably one of the biggest challenges cow calf producer face when it comes to handling.
So you certainly are an exception. Small herd sizes and small acreages can ameliorate some of these challenges, as can calving season. Lots of ranches in the west range calve and as such move pairs from day olds and up, and the younger the calves the greater the challenge. So if your calves are already 4 months old before going to pasture staying mothered during a move is not near the challenge. Jeanne, I have no idea if you have ever moved hundreds of pairs down the road through multiple gates, 6, 7, or 8 miles away with calves that are averaging month and a half to 2 months old, but if you have, with out ever having to stop to mother up because of a lapse in maternal attentiveness then I would be curious to hear the details. :tiphat:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Nothing is simple when it comes to cattle - or most anything.
I have a well balanced herd. Period. Some are 5 frame - some are 8 frame. Some are red - some are black. Do I care that they are different sizes & colors? Absolute NOT. Is my herd uniform? Absolute YES. Uniform in the traits that are important to my goals. Uniformly structurally correct. Uniformly big volume easy keepers. Uniformly fertile myrtles.
Are each and every cow perfect? Absolutely NOT. I breed EACH cow to a bull that I think will produce "the most perfect" calf I think I can get. Does that mean I get perfect calves? Absolutely NOT.
In my opinion, there is no such thing as a perfect animal. Hopefully, we all strive for that perfect animal, and that's what gives me a great herd of cows. I cull heavily on structure, reproduction (fertility), & temperament. I also cull on performance, but as far as priority, that is down on the list, although it, too, is extremely important. It's just rare that one of my heifers produces a dud.

So, what am I willing to sacrifice. I believe I answered that in my first comment. Carcass. I breed each & every cow for a heifer calf. I don't look at carcass EPD's with great interest. Do I want great carcass steers? Absolutely. But, when choosing a bull to match a cow, carcass info is at the bottom of the list. The phenotype that I like usually makes a great feedlot steer. Structurally correct, well muscled, easy fleshing. Marbling has never been a problem. If it becomes a problem, I may have to look at that a little closer when choosing bulls. But, as said, I have so many other things that are higher on the list of priorities to achieve that BALANCED offspring. Balanced in the traits that make me $$$$. Is anything more important?? So, again, I will say that you can achieve your goals if you stick to your breeding plan. But, again I will say that my cattle are not perfect - just as close to perfect as I am able to make each & every one of them to make me the most money. That is my goal.

BTW - (bragging!) we just had our NY Bull & Heifer sale - I had one animal in the sale - a yearling bull - he was 2nd high selling animal - sold for $3400 - High seller was a BC Lookout Angus bull for $3500. So, even tho I don't breed for bulls per se - I get good bulls that go out & work for their new owners. I have many repeat bull buyers. Contingent bidder has already contacted me to purchase a bull calf this fall.

Edit: I would like to add that just because you "pick" a bull that is your "perfect" choice for a specific cow - does not always turn out the way you planned. Not all bulls have the ability to pass on the phenotype & genotype CONSISTANTLY with each & every calf. So, we all get "surprises" along the way! But that's what makes "breeding" choices interesting - and CALVING SEASON.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Nothing is simple when it comes to cattle - or most anything.
I have a well balanced herd. Period. Some are 5 frame - some are 8 frame. Some are red - some are black. Do I care that they are different sizes & colors? Absolute NOT. Is my herd uniform? Absolute YES. Uniform in the traits that are important to my goals. Uniformly structurally correct. Uniformly big volume easy keepers. Uniformly fertile myrtles.
Are each and every cow perfect? Absolutely NOT. I breed EACH cow to a bull that I think will produce "the most perfect" calf I think I can get. Does that mean I get perfect calves? Absolutely NOT.
In my opinion, there is no such thing as a perfect animal. Hopefully, we all strive for that perfect animal, and that's what gives me a great herd of cows. I cull heavily on structure, reproduction (fertility), & temperament. I also cull on performance, but as far as priority, that is down on the list, although it, too, is extremely important. It's just rare that one of my heifers produces a dud.

So, what am I willing to sacrifice. I believe I answered that in my first comment. Carcass. I breed each & every cow for a heifer calf. I don't look at carcass EPD's with great interest. Do I want great carcass steers? Absolutely. But, when choosing a bull to match a cow, carcass info is at the bottom of the list. The phenotype that I like usually makes a great feedlot steer. Structurally correct, well muscled, easy fleshing. Marbling has never been a problem. If it becomes a problem, I may have to look at that a little closer when choosing bulls. But, as said, I have so many other things that are higher on the list of priorities to achieve that BALANCED offspring. Balanced in the traits that make me $$$$. Is anything more important?? So, again, I will say that you can achieve your goals if you stick to your breeding plan. But, again I will say that my cattle are not perfect - just as close to perfect as I am able to make each & every one of them to make me the most money. That is my goal.

BTW - (bragging!) we just had our NY Bull & Heifer sale - I had one animal in the sale - a yearling bull - he was 2nd high selling animal - sold for $3400 - High seller was a BC Lookout Angus bull for $3500. So, even tho I don't breed for bulls per se - I get good bulls that go out & work for their new owners. I have many repeat bull buyers. Contingent bidder has already contacted me to purchase a bull calf this fall.

Edit: I would like to add that just because you "pick" a bull that is your "perfect" choice for a specific cow - does not always turn out the way you planned. Not all bulls have the ability to pass on the phenotype & genotype CONSISTANTLY with each & every calf. So, we all get "surprises" along the way! But that's what makes "breeding" choices interesting - and CALVING SEASON.

Jeanne, it seems you are conversing with someone else.

Congratulations on the sale results.

I was talking about maternal function, and a systematic selection process that accounts for the reality of typically being in a position of having to compromise on one thing or another because few bulls do everything perfectly.

The question was regarding the sire selection process question in light of maternal reproductive functional requirements, not a questioning of carcass traits, cow size, color, phenotype, fleshing ability, culling, uniformity of my herd, or your herd. As we well know personal preferences as to all those traits are best left to the discretion of the owner.

Please clarify this statement " but as far as priority, that is down on the list, although it, too, is extremely important.". You used the word priority and to me a from a maternal functional standpoint a selection priorizing relative to functional trait importance must be done. If you are raising maternal seedstock and your priorities fail to acknowledge fertility then it may not be long until the maternal value of your cattle is compromised. Maternal cattle with compromised fertility is a bit of a non sequitur.

I agree that the breeding game is a lottery and by the time we know the outcome it is to late to do much about it.

Good luck Jeanne. :cboy:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Jeanne, it seems you are conversing with someone else. ??? I think you need to re-read my post.

I was talking about maternal function, and a systematic selection process that accounts for the reality of typically being in a position of having to compromise on one thing or another because few bulls do everything perfectly.

The question was regarding the sire selection process question in light of maternal reproductive functional requirements, not a questioning of carcass traits, cow size, color, phenotype, fleshing ability, culling, uniformity of my herd, or your herd. As we well know personal preferences as to all those traits are best left to the discretion of the owner.

Let's see, you wrote in your original question:
Less then average mature height.
Less than average mature weight
So the question becomes what are you willing to compromise and what system in terms of accessing degree of specific trait improvement required vs degree of specific trait compromise you can risk, are you going to employ?

So, you indicated you are considering HEIGHT & WEIGHT as part of your selection process. Uniformity of a cow herd is EXTREMELY important (more so if you are using a natural service bull). If you don't strive for a uniform herd, how do you pick a bull? And COLOR is a convenience trait that can make you more money – just like Polled.
NO BULL has 100% of all the traits needed for a whole herd. In my case, I have the luxury of picking a bull for ONE cow (it's called artificial insemination).
"Please clarify this statement " but as far as priority, that is down on the list, although it, too, is extremely important.". You used the word priority and to me a from a maternal functional standpoint a selection priorizing relative to functional trait importance must be done. If you are raising maternal seedstock and your priorities fail to acknowledge fertility then it may not be long until the maternal value of your cattle is compromised. Maternal cattle with compromised fertility is a bit of a non sequitur.
Let's get the whole comment: "I cull heavily on structure, reproduction (fertility), & temperament. I also cull on performance, but as far as priority, that is down on the list, although it, too, is extremely important. It's just rare that one of my heifers produces a dud." (PERFORMANCE IS DOWN ON THE LIST OF PRIORITIES)
"Performance" in my translation, is POUNDS produced – NOT fertility. I already stated that fertility was high on my priority list and I ALSO stated my cows are fertile myrtles (kinda like meaning they are FERTILE).
Why do you have to compromise on your bull selection? With the use of EPD's (tools – not God's gift to the beef industry), breeders have lowered BW, raised WW, stabilized Milk and most all other traits. You don't KNOW if a bull is high in fertility – or that he has the ability to pass it on. You have to rely on your cows records on fertility and cull hard against poor breeders. There are bulls out there that "should" have well balanced traits (for a balanced herd of cows) – or excel in the traits your cows are lacking.
I think I stated quite eloquently that no animal is PERFECT. You get a group of cows & you pick a bull with the MOST traits that COMPLIMENT your cows.
I am not willing to sacrifice any maternal traits, are you?

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Doc got me thinking in another post about the reality of multi trait selection.


Lets say you are in the process of building up a registered or commercial Angus(substitute any maternal breed you like) cow herd, and you have decided on the following functional selection emphasis in that pursuit. Depending on the breed of choice and regional climate a few of these preferences may not apply.


As regards ww growth, breed average.

Less than average BW YES BELOW AVG

Less then average mature height. YES

Less than average mature weight. YES

Things I want to be more than average , I wouldn't want to be percieved as a total under achiever.

Fertility, as much as possible, I am a glutton, both sires and dams, is there such a thing as too much. NO THERE CANNOT BE TO MUCH

Structural soundness of feet, as the average Angus anymore is very poor footed. YES MAY BE THE TOUGHEST TRAIT TO FIX

Udder quality, above average for sure. HOW GOOD DO THEY NEED TO BE

Disposition as good as possible with out compromising maternal protectiveness and attentiveness. YES

Mothering ability, can you have too much? WE HAD SOME TARENTAISE THAT WOULD CHASE YOU FOR 1/2 MILE UNTIL THERE CALVES WERE 3 MO THAT WAS A BIT MUCH

Calving ease, more than average. YES

Constitution, more than average, seems the really growthy calves are quite often more prone to get sick than the average calves, probably mother natures desire for average. AVG SEEMS TO HOLD UP BOTH ENDS HERE

Longevity, as much as I can get, I think. HAD SOME TARENTISE COWS THAT I BOUGHT AS 10yr olds AND GOT 10 MORE CALVES STILL HAVE LOTS OF PERCENTAGE CATTLE.

Hair coat, for sub arctic weather, more than average. SLICK HERE

Maternal attentiveness, a trait that seems to be waning. In the seventies and eighties the Black cows either were always with their calves, or knew where their calves were at all times. When you showed up and it was time to go they would go get their calves and they would stay mothered up through the entire move regardless of distance. WE HAVE USED SOME EXT AND THAT HAS HELPED A LITTLE

For breeding bulls above average for a clean tight sheath, definitely no
long loose pendulous sheaths. And no tolerance for bulls that prolapse there prepuce. YES

Libido, above average. YES

Servicing ability, above average for agility and athleticism. YES BIG LONG BULLS SEEM TO LACK HERE. I LIKE THE SHORTER COUPLED THEY SEEM TO LAST LONGER AND DON'T GET HURT

And last, but not least, the ability to do all of the above under a management system who's profit strategy is optimal productivity utilizing the most cost effective regionally accessible inputs. THIS IS A LIFE TIME QUEST

So in light of that multi selection emphasis, my experience has been that finding all of those in one package is almost impossible. STILL LOOKING

So the question becomes what are you willing to compromise and what system in terms of accessing degree of specific trait improvement required vs degree of specific trait compromise you can risk, are you going to employ? THE PLACES THAT WE CAN GET ALONG WITHOUT ARE CARCASS AND GROWTH, AND UDDERS IF YOU NEVER TOUCH THE COW AND SHE CAN HAVE 12 CALVES THAT IS GOOD ENOUGH

To me this is the ongoing challenge with breeding stock selection especially when it comes to sires because of the degree of proportional population impact.

Doc, your thoughts and the thoughts of anyone else who wants to wade in would be appreciated. :tiphat:

Well Dylan we are going to wade in and I hope I don't drown after Docs reply.

W.T, I missed your thorough pragmatic reply, thank you. Might be a better topic for the 4.9 or the Korner Cafe.

Thank you for being prepared to stick your neck out on the longevity definition. 12 calves qualifies in my opinion.
Also interesting point on constitution, I also think when a person is selecting bulls disqualifying those bulls that we ever needed treating is a good policy. Good point on the udder quality issue re what is enough. Hard to beat the % Tarentaise. The shorter coupled bulls often appear less athletic but like you say maybe less prone to injury. 1/2 mile till 3 mo is a bit much. :lol: :lol:

 

[Northern Rancher]

Those two sites are too much like the Vagina Monologues for me lol.

 

[Dylan Biggs]

Those two sites are too much like the Vagina Monologues for me lol.

NR, when did you last see the VM's in Meadow Lake? Or was it in Moosejaw?

Or was it a private performance for the crew at the Waldorf? :lol:

How did the cryptorchid grilling go?

 

[Northern Rancher]

Wasn't much of one-if I was rich I'd hire a Lear Jet get the main protagonists together and let them have it. Internet testosterone gets pretty stale.

 

[Hereford76]

i guess i missed this thread - but then i usually just skim them for the word "hereford".

seems to me in your example your emphasis for below or average traits compared to above average are broken into "terminall" vs " maternal" and basically the brunt of your emphasis is for optimization at home without as much for further down the production line.

i'm in the relatively early stages of the same thing and i often wonder if what i'm willing to sacrifice will maybe optimize at home but devalue the cattle down the line.

i'm just curious to any correlations you may have observed with selection emphasis for optimization at home that have may have either 1) devalued the end product so much you aren't willing to sacrifice it or 2) the other way around, found something that increases both.

for example - not often do i hear people talk about maternal attentiveness and i've never really put selection pressure on it... but i definitaly can correlate a bloodline to it and appreciate its value - maybe a tangent here but there is nothing more frustrating than cows that take off to greener grass without their calf on the move and once they get there suddenly remember they are a mama and turn around and cause havok - i've never put selection pressure on it just found ways to manage it usually at my own labor expense (pretty cheap!). has any selection pressure you've put on this trait or others correlated with cattle that fed, yeild, grade any better/worse? just an example of what i'd like to hear you share.

 

[SRBeef]

...seems to me in your example your emphasis for below or average traits compared to above average are broken into "terminall" vs " maternal" and basically the brunt of your emphasis is for optimization at home without as much for further down the production line.

i'm in the relatively early stages of the same thing and i often wonder if what i'm willing to sacrifice will maybe optimize at home but devalue the cattle down the line.

i'm just curious to any correlations you may have observed with selection emphasis for optimization at home that have may have either 1) devalued the end product so much you aren't willing to sacrifice it or 2) the other way around, found something that increases both...

I think the cattle business can be looked at as many businesses - to stay in business and be profitable we need to focus on our customers' wants and needs. The more we focus on the target of providing what our customer wants and producing it most efficiently, the more successful we will be.

One problem in these discussions is that we on this board have a range of different customers. Defining just exactly who is your customer and what does he want is critical to the success of any business. Only then can we start to try to figure out how to provide what that customer wants most efficiently.

Folks selling breeding stock have different customer/needs than the folks selling feeders, who have different customer/needs than those selling fats on a grid, who have different customer/needs than those selling freezer beef.

The answer to Dylan's original questions probably vary considerably depending on who our different customers are.

In my situation, selling birth-to-plate-harvested-at-13/14-months freezer beef from a small part-time mostly grass upper midwest location, the cattle traits I need for efficient production of what my customers want to buy and are willing to pay for are likely quite different from what traits many others here are looking for.

To go back to Dylan's original questions:

As regards ww growth, breed average.

Less than average BW

Less then average mature height.

Less than average mature weight.

Things I want to be more than average , I wouldn't want to be percieved as a total under achiever.

Fertility, as much as possible, I am a glutton, both sires and dams, is there such a thing as too much.

Structural soundness of feet, as the average Angus anymore is very poor footed.

Udder quality, above average for sure.

Disposition as good as possible with out compromising maternal protectiveness and attentiveness.

Mothering ability, can you have too much?

Calving ease, more than average.

Constitution, more than average, seems the really growthy calves are quite often more prone to get sick than the average calves, probably mother natures desire for average.

Longevity, as much as I can get, I think.

Hair coat, for sub arctic weather, more than average.

Maternal attentiveness, a trait that seems to be waning. In the seventies and eighties the Black cows either were always with their calves, or knew where their calves were at all times. When you showed up and it was time to go they would go get their calves and they would stay mothered up through the entire move regardless of distance.

For breeding bulls above average for a clean tight sheath, definitely no
long loose pendulous sheaths. And no tolerance for bulls that prolapse there prepuce.

Libido, above average.

Servicing ability, above average for agility and athleticism.

And last, but not least, the ability to do all of the above under a management system who's profit strategy is optimal productivity utilizing the most cost effective regionally accessible inputs.

So in light of that multi selection emphasis, my experience has been that finding all of those in one package is almost impossible...

At the risk of reopening old wounds and asking that we stick to the current subject of Dylan's post, I have looked at my own bull, Huth U070 in the light of Dylan's questions. I have also had a discussion with my vet about my bull and in particular his hooves. I will add a recent picture to this post.

As I have discussed here before. based on my weight data I am convinced that a smaller frame, "1200 lb" mature weight class cow that can calve unassisted in early spring in WI and can wean a 205 day calf over 50% of her weight at weaning is most profitable given my particular target customers wants and my resources (climate, terrain, woods, usually good grass but limited acres, limited time, limited facilities, limited equipment, etc) available.

U070 has about everything on Dylan's list but especially important to me is his reduced frame size (about 4.6) that I want to move my entire herd toward the 1200 lb class. U070 also has calving ease, growth near breed average (I think moderated due to frame size?), excellent fertility, excellent udder quality, milk, mothering, constitution, coat, health, etc (out wintered through a very tough WI winter) and is from a line which are bred to do well on grass. Here are his current EPD's:

Yes they are "low accuracy" but as far as I am concerned they are accurate as reflected in his first calf crop. U070 also has the low fat, large REA and long, low, midsection I am looking for.

In discussing my bull with my vet, a cattleman himself, he tells me there is no such thing as a perfect bull and you need to look at the whole package. As far as U070's hooves/feet go he said he's seen better and he's seen worse. But taken as a package above that otherwise meets my needs very well, not a disqualifier.

As Dylan's original post points out, "So in light of that multi selection emphasis, my experience has been that finding all of those in one package is almost impossible..."

Here is a more recent picture of U070 I snapped as he came to the waterer. Nothing has been done to his hooves from my earlier, poor, pocket camera snapshot of him in a bad position and stance.

Again this is not a posed professional cattle photographer's picture. U070 has been on grass only and not had even a grain treat for weeks.

Addressing Dylan's "challenge", I think that U070 comes very close to matching my needs in efficient, profitable production of the product that my customer's want and are willing to pay for. Is there some compromise on hooves? Sure but, in my opinion, not much in light of the positives.

As Dylan and my vet agree, the perfect bull/package meeting all of his and my criteria, does not exist. At least in my price range!

An excellent topic and thread if we can stay on the subject matter.

FWIW.

Jim

 

[3waycross]

Not to open old wounds Jim but are you going to have his feet trimmed?

 

[SRBeef]

based on my vet's opinion, no.

 

[Hereford76]

i must have been trying to get too fancy asking the question - hard not to do after reading comments mr biggs and doc harris write. anyhow, maybe i'm under the wrong impression but it think dylan is in a unique position to offer good insight as a producer thru all chains - from birth to plate, and how to balance between. i am just interested in maybe some of pressures he makes for optimization at home that he can correlate to the end stage positive or negative within his enterprise.

 

[vclavin]

There's always room for improvement in carcass qualities. Trick is not to go backwards on other important traits.
Valerie

Depends on the market you're trying to reach. Too much RE is just as bad as too little, marbeling can be carried to extremes. We are seriously in the carcass improvement phase now but that didn;t just start. It didn;t have as heavy an influence in years past but it was alwasy a consideration even while trying to get cows that performed acceptably on HE fescue. That's all part of the balance and optimum. But as has been said many times before, your results may vary. What works on one farm with one managment may be a total bust on another. Our cows if moved to an environement that had good grass and no endophyte might turn out to be overly fat slackards just as cows that perform well for 3waycross purtnear died when moved to fescue.

Agreed. I've noticed this past Colder than usual winter has caused an increase in rib and back fat as seen in the ultrasound data. Maybe cattleman should stay closer to "home" when buying breeding stock, this should help with genetics that work for each producers area.
Valerie

 

[W.T]

Ever watch a good bull fight? I sat down and watched one many years ago and thought this Simmy Bull would kill this Angus bull of mine they were both about the same wt and size, after awhile the angus was so much quicker turning the corner that the simmy had had enough he just couldnt match the quicker short coupled Angus. Over the years i have watched quite a few bull fights and regardless, of breed the shorter coupled bull will win about 75% of the time, is that not selection of the fittest. How does man choose what is athleticism in cattle, or do we let them choose?

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Ever watch a good bull fight? I sat down and watched one many years ago and thought this Simmy Bull would kill this Angus bull of mine they were both about the same wt and size, after awhile the angus was so much quicker turning the corner that the simmy had had enough he just couldnt match the quicker short coupled Angus. Over the years i have watched quite a few bull fights and regardless, of breed the shorter coupled bull will win about 75% of the time, is that not selection of the fittest. How does man choose what is athleticism in cattle, or do we let them choose?

Good answer WT.

 

[Northern Rancher]

If we went to multisire pastures I think the athletic, fertile bulls would rise to the top simply because they'd sire the most progeny. There is getting to be a bit of 'faintheart' syndrome in Angus cattle-I'm picking on them because that is mostly what we run-a bit of adversity in some lines and they sort themselves out very quickly-feeding to the EPD is what I suspect might be the cause. High maintenance cattle are fine if they are traded amongst producers with a similar mindset-they are pretty much an unmitigated disaster when you try and utilize them in a bit tougher production enviroment. Alot of jobs we try and do for cattle they are capable of doing on their own and thriving at it. If I provide good water and ample forage they better damn well be able to produce at a profitable level.

 

[TexasBred]

Ever watch a good bull fight? I sat down and watched one many years ago and thought this Simmy Bull would kill this Angus bull of mine they were both about the same wt and size, after awhile the angus was so much quicker turning the corner that the simmy had had enough he just couldnt match the quicker short coupled Angus. Over the years i have watched quite a few bull fights and regardless, of breed the shorter coupled bull will win about 75% of the time, is that not selection of the fittest. How does man choose what is athleticism in cattle, or do we let them choose?

It would be if you're raising fighting bulls. How many cattle do they breed and what do the offspring look like?

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Ever watch a good bull fight? I sat down and watched one many years ago and thought this Simmy Bull would kill this Angus bull of mine they were both about the same wt and size, after awhile the angus was so much quicker turning the corner that the simmy had had enough he just couldnt match the quicker short coupled Angus. Over the years i have watched quite a few bull fights and regardless, of breed the shorter coupled bull will win about 75% of the time, is that not selection of the fittest. How does man choose what is athleticism in cattle, or do we let them choose?

It would be if you're raising fighting bulls. How many cattle do they breed and what do the offspring look like?

good question,, like if you run enough cattle for 2 bull's a 3rd one would be better while those 2 are fighting the other one, is taking care of business