Texas Postpones Animal ID and Premise ID

[frenchie]

You know their seems to be a thread of truth to both sides of this disagreement. Am I seeing black helicopters? Well I dont know, I have seen a few in the past 4 years, but by the same token, do I think another federal program has the answers? Nope , nada, aint gonna happen. Our fereral goverment is clueless and sorry Frenchie, the Canadian goverment is no better. Our goverment needs to get some cattlemen invoved in this problem, not NCBA lackeys or packers, but honest to god cattlemen that make a full time living raising cattle. Of course that makes sense, so it aint never gonna happen

houstoncutter I,m not saying our goverment is better...But I had seen a few things that happened up here needlessly because animals could not be tracked quickly. In the late 1990s here they had a case of T.B in a slaughter animal in my home province..It took them damn near 2 weeks I believe to find where that animal came from. During that time no auction markets opened, no cattle moved out of province. No cattle moved through the province till thats cows home was found. Fortunately It occured in a time when cattle numbers were low.We unable to sell anything during that time.That event was prior to the C.C.I.A tagging program.

Since then they have tracked back a t.b infected C.C.I.A tagged animal in less than 24 hrs.

Another time was in 53? when they shut down a whole province because of a little area that F.M.D had surfaced in. Nobody in that entire province moved stock for months..Again that was needless..At that time they had no way of tracking anything. So to be safe they just drew a circle around the entire border.A lot of clean farms were needlessly subjected to quarintene.A lot of peoples ranches failed during that time.

I firmly believe that without Canada"s ability to track cattle ..We would still be today exporting to no-one.
Is our system perfect of course not..No system is ..But at least It is an honest effort to protect our farmers livelyhood.

Sure we had guys screaming that the Goverment would know exactly how many head of cattle would have.And yes a few in the beginning protested by not tagging there cows..till they got a healthy fine that is..

All that moaning and bitching all came to a halt in May 2003 .when B.S.E surfaced in this country and people realized how important traceback was..That first cow because of her age had to be tracked back through D.N.A testing it took quite awhile..The C.C.I.a program was just nicely getting off the ground the yr or so prior to that.

Interesting side bit ...THe American fish farmer ..who owned them cows had eithera community pasture or a grazing allotment. when they checked his cows I.Ds they found 2 I.d #s that did not belong to him. He had not known the difference. But for the I,D tags ..we would not know either

 

[CattleAnnie]

What Frenchie is saying is true for a lot of Canadian cattlemen and women.

I can remember all the fuss when the CCIA program was announced. All the old "gov't interference, Big Brother is watching,over-regulation,etc".

Heck, I remember feeling teed myself that I was going to have to fork out an extra dollar a head for the tags.

The that day in May when that BSE cow was announced.

Since then I've never heard one complaint about mandatory tagging.

Fact of the matter, now I'm very pleased that we have this program in place. Cheap insurance if it comes down to it.

Now if you want to talk about a B.S. system, let's talk about Gun Registration in Canada.



Take care. ;-)

 

[Oldtimer]

frenchie and cattle annie-- The system you have now in Canada is nothing like the one proposed by NAIS--all you have now in Canada is a tag in the ear that tells you possibly where it was born ( or who put the last tag in on those that fall out) and the birthdate (if you choose to give it)....We already have this up and running for those that choose to use it.....I can do that tomorrow with an RFID tag if I choose- at a cost of $3.00 per head (not counting time and labor)...But if the buyer only gives me $1.00 per head more for the tagged animals- why should I?

The NAIS proposal for movement and sale info is much more complex and could create an entire new government bureacracy...As proposed it would require not only a whole new workforce of federal inspectors to inspect, record and track these movements and sales - but an enforcement arm to police those that don't comply....

USDA proposed it with absolutely no idea how to run it or what its going to cost...If the cost will be more than the benefit is it worth it?

And unlike Canada's system- the US government is not going to pay any of the cost.......

 

[MikeC]

OT:But if the buyer only gives me $1.00 per head more for the tagged animals- why should I?

What it will boil down to is...........if you don't tag it you won't be able to sell your calf for anything but commodity beef.

 

[frenchie]

frenchie and cattle annie-- The system you have now in Canada is nothing like the one proposed by NAIS--all you have now in Canada is a tag in the ear that tells you possibly where it was born ( or who put the last tag in on those that fall out) and the birthdate (if you choose to give it)....We already have this up and running for those that choose to use it............

See Ot we don,t have that choice not to tag .I believe it is a $500 fine If you are caught without it.There are no people here that can legally move and sell cattle without tags and livestock manifests.

I can do that tomorrow with an RFID tag if I choose- at a cost of $3.00 per head (not counting time and labor)...But if the buyer only gives me $1.00 per head more for the tagged animals- why should I?

Ot....What is it you have against mandatory traceback.Do you want to be in the global beef business or not..

The NAIS proposal for movement and sale info is much more complex and could create an entire new government bureacracy...As proposed it would require not only a whole new workforce of federal inspectors to inspect, record and track these movements and sales - but an enforcement arm to police those that don't comply...........

Ot what would be the point of a Mandatory I.d program If no-one was there to enforce it.. :roll:

USDA proposed it with absolutely no idea how to run it or what its going to cost...If the cost will be more than the benefit is it worth it?

How do you judge the benefit Ot... During a F.M.D outbreak :?:

Sort of like phoning your insurance agent for fire insurance ,while your house is burning down.

And unlike Canada's system- the US government is not going to pay any of the cost.......

OT...We still have to pay for our tags same as you would have to ;-)

 

[Oldtimer]

frenchie and cattle annie-- The system you have now in Canada is nothing like the one proposed by NAIS--all you have now in Canada is a tag in the ear that tells you possibly where it was born ( or who put the last tag in on those that fall out) and the birthdate (if you choose to give it)....We already have this up and running for those that choose to use it............

See Ot we don,t have that choice not to tag .I believe it is a $500 fine If you are caught without it.There are no people here that can legally move and sell cattle without tags and livestock manifests.

But you do not have RFID individual animal tracking thru your system...The NAIS proposed system was more layed out like the Aussie system which many say is not working and is costing 10 times what was projected...

I can do that tomorrow with an RFID tag if I choose- at a cost of $3.00 per head (not counting time and labor)...But if the buyer only gives me $1.00 per head more for the tagged animals- why should I?

Ot....What is it you have against mandatory traceback.Do you want to be in the global beef business or not..

frenchie- I have nothing against having a traceback system-- I've said this 100 times on here BUT I do have problems with the Federal Government mandating it and running it....In the first place what they tried to do was illegal and unconstitutional- and all it did was p*ss everyone off against any system (normal USDA operation)...We also know that the Federal Government uses no common sense in mandating and or enforcing any of their rules or laws....The plan they layed out to have every little old grandmothers 5 acre farm registered and her chicken flock and milkcow IDed was bound to fail... M-ID will come to be- set up by and enforced by the states and which be easily altered as demanded...

The NAIS proposal for movement and sale info is much more complex and could create an entire new government bureacracy...As proposed it would require not only a whole new workforce of federal inspectors to inspect, record and track these movements and sales - but an enforcement arm to police those that don't comply...........

Ot what would be the point of a Mandatory I.d program If no-one was there to enforce it.. :roll:

I believe the federal government doesn't have the enforcement authority until the animal enters into interstate transport...The states do- the feds don't....

USDA proposed it with absolutely no idea how to run it or what its going to cost...If the cost will be more than the benefit is it worth it?

How do you judge the benefit Ot... During a F.M.D outbreak :?:

Sort of like phoning your insurance agent for fire insurance ,while your house is burning down.

But if we put $5 billion dollars into a system that the vets are already saying won't be used for FMD or BSE are we getting our money back...Our state vet says the system we have is quite adequate and has proven effective for over 100 years...

If USDA really was concerned about diseases like FMD and BSE they wouldn't be daily lowering their prevention safeguards--Like allowing importing of beef and cattle from higher ratio BSE countries like Canada and Japan- Opening Beef imports to South American FMD history countries like Chile- and opening up imports of chicken products from China, where they are in the middle of the Bird flu...I don't buy the disease prevention argument...

And unlike Canada- the US does not need to export- to Japan or wherever...If we didn't import cheap beef and cattle from every Podunk country in the world the US cattle industry would still be very viable just supplying the US consumer....

And unlike Canada's system- the US government is not going to pay any of the cost.......

OT...We still have to pay for our tags same as you would have to ;-)

But you as producers did not have to fund the entire cost of the set up or the infrastructure to operate it --- you will end up paying much less than what the proposed system will end up costing each individual US producer...

 

[CattleAnnie]

Well, every now and then, I just gotta join in these conversations, so here's my viewpoint.

We as Canadian producers have paid far and above the cost of implementing such a system, thanks to the kick in the teeth we got when that first BSE animal reared it's costly head.

I can remember asking a BC cattlemen's association rep at a meeting during the months following the first positive, why we didn't push for testing of all stock sent to slaughter.

Apparantly, the CCA's (Canadian Cattlemen's Association) position was that it would be too expensive, and that they didn't want to hurt Canada's chance for re-opening the border by raising the bar on testing to a level above the US required level.

They said that the cost of testing would be around $25-30 bucks a head, and that the producer would eat the cost of this.

I can tell you that I sure as heck could have eaten that cost for breakfast, as opposed to the 2/3 cut in my calf check that I was forced to swallow and the ensuing misery that myself and my fellow Canucks in the Ag industry suffered through.

So to me, seeing as how the 100% testing is unlikely to become reality anytime in the foreseeable future, the ability to track stock accurately and efficently in a timely matter is easy to put a price on.

Even though the CCIA said it would grandfather the barcode ID tags and has changed it's tune so that any calf going to market after this Sept has to have an RFID, I'm more than happy to fork out the cash if it means ensuring that our beef industry is seen as a transparently conscientious group with the goal of providing healthy products to consumers worldwide.

This is just how I, a (relatively) young producer who never foresaw the BSE disaster, view this issue. I have enjoyed reading the viewpoints of others, and hope to continue to do so in the future.


Take care.

 

[frenchie]

But you do not have RFID individual animal tracking thru your system...The NAIS proposed system was more layed out like the Aussie system which many say is not working and is costing 10 times what was projected......

Ot the only C.C.I.A tags you can currently buy here are the R.F.I.D tags..Effective Sept 2006 no animals can be sold without the R.F.I.D tag..

The plan they layed out to have every little old grandmothers 5 acre farm registered and her chicken flock and milkcow IDed was bound to fail... M-ID will come to be- set up by and enforced by the states and which be easily altered as demanded......

So you want all these little farms and their little herds of cows and chickens excluded..from identification..

Boy theres a plan.. :roll:

OT when you vaccinate your calves do you skip a few here and there or do you do them all.

I believe the federal government doesn't have the enforcement authority until the animal enters into interstate transport...The states do- the feds don't.......

Ot You won,t have mandatory I.d if your state does not require everyone to participate.

But if we put $5 billion dollars into a system that the vets are already saying won't be used for FMD or BSE are we getting our money back...Our state vet says the system we have is quite adequate and has proven effective for over 100 years...

Yeah In your state.whoopee..find them bulls yet :?:

If USDA really was concerned about diseases like FMD and BSE they wouldn't be daily lowering their prevention safeguards--Like allowing importing of beef and cattle from higher ratio BSE countries like Canada and Japan- ...

Its all in the testing Ot .Some countries actually try to find it ;-)

Opening Beef imports to South American FMD history countries like Chile- and opening up imports of chicken products from China, where they are in the middle of the Bird flu...I don't buy the disease prevention argument......

And I don,t buy your argument either..I think you guys are scared. that someone will track a Mad cow to your doorstep.

And unlike Canada- the US does not need to export- to Japan or wherever...If we didn't import cheap beef and cattle from every Podunk country in the world the US cattle industry would still be very viable just supplying the US consumer....

.......

Thats trade Ot you win some you lose some. ;-)

But you as producers did not have to fund the entire cost of the set up or the infrastructure to operate it --- you will end up paying much less than what the proposed system will end up costing each individual US producer...

Ot we funded a good portion of that through checkoff,but where do you think gov,t money comes from ;-)

 

[Oldtimer]

frenchie- I think the difference in our thinking and our two countries came to light today...I read an article where the Wyoming legislature is passing a law to allow citizens to pack a concealed handgun even without a permit- just because their legislature and citizens feel it is everyones constitutional right....

Where in Canada now you can't even own a handgun anymore- because you've federally sold many of your rights and freedoms down the drain...

I'm not sure being involved in the socialist global trade is worth the constitutional freedom losses NAIS was proposing and the sovereignty we have to give up to participate.....

 

[CattleAnnie]

Sorry, OT, not intending to contradict you, but in Canada we certainly can own handguns. If you have your restricted firearms licence, you can purchase one. All you have to do is register it.

As a matter of fact, I own one myself.

As far as selling rights down the drain, the Federal Gun Registry program was simply a knee-jerk band-aid solution to gun crime that was enacted by a bunch of Liberal bleeding hearts. The conservative realists that actually own firearms never supported it, but sometimes in politics it's the squeeky wheels that get the grease, and in this case the Liberals were the loudest voices in the ears of the Government and the media.


Take care.

 

[Bez!]

Sorry, OT, not intending to contradict you, but in Canada we certainly can own handguns. If you have your restricted firearms licence, you can purchase one. All you have to do is register it.

As a matter of fact, I own one myself.

As far as selling rights down the drain, the Federal Gun Registry program was simply a knee-jerk band-aid solution to gun crime that was enacted by a bunch of Liberal bleeding hearts. The conservative realists that actually own firearms never supported it, but sometimes in politics it's the squeeky wheels that get the grease, and in this case the Liberals were the loudest voices in the ears of the Government and the media.


Take care.

And - you forgot the most important thing of all Cattleannie.

The registry and the laws going with it are about to be hauled out to the trash can and burned.

Bless the new government and those RURAL voters who put them into power.

I see IPSOS Reid has the new gov at 59% approval rating as of today - I do not believe the penniless and morally bankrupt Libs will be calling for a new election soon.

Bez!

 

[frenchie]

frenchie- I think the difference in our thinking and our two countries came to light today...I read an article where the Wyoming legislature is passing a law to allow citizens to pack a concealed handgun even without a permit- just because their legislature and citizens feel it is everyones constitutional right....

Where in Canada now you can't even own a handgun anymore- because you've federally sold many of your rights and freedoms down the drain...

I'm not sure being involved in the socialist global trade is worth the constitutional freedom losses NAIS was proposing and the sovereignty we have to give up to participate.....

Ot ..I like how you change the subject.

Why is it that the self-appointed saviour of the U.S cattle industry.(R-calf).does not care enough about disease control to help implement it..Rather that you seem content with to have loopholes everywhere...I hope Matt don,t pay for your mistakes


B.T.W ... you can still own a handgun in Canada.

 

[Bez!]

frenchie- I think the difference in our thinking and our two countries came to light today...I read an article where the Wyoming legislature is passing a law to allow citizens to pack a concealed handgun even without a permit- just because their legislature and citizens feel it is everyones constitutional right....

Where in Canada now you can't even own a handgun anymore- because you've federally sold many of your rights and freedoms down the drain...

I'm not sure being involved in the socialist global trade is worth the constitutional freedom losses NAIS was proposing and the sovereignty we have to give up to participate.....

Ot ..I like how you change the subject.

Why is it that the self-appointed saviour of the U.S cattle industry.(R-calf).does not care enough about disease control to help implement it..Rather that you seem content with to have loopholes everywhere...I hope Matt don,t pay for your mistakes


B.T.W ... you can still own a handgun in Canada.

Awww - don't be too hard on him frenchie.

CA and I helped him a lil' bit!

:lol:

Bez!

 

[frenchie]

frenchie- I think the difference in our thinking and our two countries came to light today...I read an article where the Wyoming legislature is passing a law to allow citizens to pack a concealed handgun even without a permit- just because their legislature and citizens feel it is everyones constitutional right....

Where in Canada now you can't even own a handgun anymore- because you've federally sold many of your rights and freedoms down the drain...

I'm not sure being involved in the socialist global trade is worth the constitutional freedom losses NAIS was proposing and the sovereignty we have to give up to participate.....

Ot ..I like how you change the subject.

Why is it that the self-appointed saviour of the U.S cattle industry.(R-calf).does not care enough about disease control to help implement it..Rather that you seem content with to have loopholes everywhere...I hope Matt don,t pay for your mistakes


B.T.W ... you can still own a handgun in Canada.

Awww - don't be too hard on him frenchie.

CA and I helped him a lil' bit!

:lol:

Bez!

That s okay Bez ..but what he really needs is treatment. :lol:

 

[Oldtimer]

While its been a few years since I was up there (Regina) for a pistol shoot- it didn't seem like you had much handgun freedom even then...Took an act of Parliament to buy one- or get one imported-- then even the Canadians had to go to the police station to get a daily permit everytime they even took it to the range...

But no big deal...What I was trying to show was the differences we have in allowing a federal government strong authority and the fact many in this country think it is important to maintain the states rights, constitutional, and sovereignty rights we still have.....

That is where USDA's NAIS plan hit its downfall....ID and tracking will eventually come to be, but it will be mandated by the states and not mandated to and run by a single Political Action Group........

 

[cmjust0]

Frenchie - Not being American gives you a good excuse for not understanding how Un-American something like NAIS really is.. I forgive you. I'm still trying to understand what everyone else's excuse is, though..

Texan - NAIS doesn't just affect cattle production, ya know.. It's true that I don't have any cattle YET, but that certainly doesn't disqualify me from speaking up about NAIS -- *especially* when they're going to start manditory farm registrations before too long.. I own a farm subject to mandatory registration, and therefore, I have the right to an opinion. Besides, I would no more ignore the issues facing an industry I'm about to become part of than I would begin building a herd before I was finished building my fences and facilities.. It's all about preparedness.. In short, I won't apologize to you and I refuse to let you make me feel like I don't have the right to speak my mind about NAIS. I do, and I will.


Caustic - You don't have to be an old hand like yourself to learn about and understand NAIS. I guess I fail to see your point..

houstoncutter - I'm glad to see that not everyone's buying into NAIS 100%..

CattleAnnie - CCIA is different than NAIS, because CCIA is targeted *only* at the cattle industry.. NAIS affects everything from cattle to goats to horses, pigs, chickens, name it...

Oldtimer - Preach on!! 8)

 

[CattleAnnie]

Cmjust0,

Hate to burst that bubble, but, where the CCIA is responsible for cattle id, there's also the CSIP (Canadian Sheep Identification Program) which is responsible for the mandatory ID of sheep (and goats?) since 2004, then there's NLID (National Livestock Identification for Diary) and if I recall there's another program for tracing hogs, poultry and I know that a national id program for equines in the works.

Somehow they all fall under the blanket program of the Canadian Livestock Identification Agency(CLIA), which is of course accountable to the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (CFIA), a Federal government entity.

So in a round-about way, we've already had a NAIS program equivalent up and running for a while now.

Please understand that I'm not trying to rub your nose in this information...I just figure that folks can understand issues better if they have more facts to work with.

Take care.

 

[frenchie]

Frenchie - Not being American gives you a good excuse for not understanding how Un-American something like NAIS really is.. I forgive you. I'm still trying to understand what everyone else's excuse is, though..

Cmjust0 dismissing me as just a Canuk is fine...Just don,t understand why you would rather have no traceback..Do you hate your neighbors that much.

,

I would no more ignore the issues facing an industry I'm about to become part of than I would begin building a herd before I was finished building my fences and facilities.. It's all about preparedness..

Preparedness. :roll: Now theres a flip-flop

 

[cmjust0]

CattleAnnie -

Thanks for the insight into Canada's system... Looks to me like CLIA's not actually up and running yet, though.. I guess it's yet to be seen whether or not CLIA actually ends up being as intrusive and far-reaching as NAIS proposes to be..

frenchie -

Like I said here before, I wouldn't mind NAIS so much if it exempted people whose animals weren't intended for the commercial markets, and if it treated *all* commercial producers equally -- big and small alike.. If that can't happen, then yes, I'd rather see the whole thing scrapped.. In case you didn't notice the event that prompted this thread, I'm not alone in feeling that way..

Here's what makes me the maddest about NAIS, in a nutshell.. I know that at some point, somebody realized that it would seriously cut down the efficiency and profitability of a large scale operation to have to individually tag every animal and keep individual records on each one.. So, whatever body drafted this thing up had a decision to make -- either change the plan to something more efficient for *all producers*, or keep the inefficient one and simply create a loophole for the big producers.. We all know what decision they made, and it wasn't in favor of most independent cattle producers..

Personally, I tend to flare up a little when corrupt government agencies cater to the deepest pockets and hang the little guy out to dry.. That could be an American thing, though, so you might not understand..

 

[bwflonghorns]

http://www.tahc.state.tx.us/news/pr/2006/2006Feb_TAHC_Commission_Meeting.pdf

The bumped the meeting up to March 23.. (see above link)

You know it is amazing that Texas has a bazillion illegals enter this state every year.. do we care? no.. just make sure you know where that cow is..

Writing a letter now.. other Texas ranchers/farmers and pet owners.. please do the same.