Tetanus

[kenny thomas]

Lucky_P, milkmaid, or any others, I have a 200 lb calf that came from the market 2 weeks ago yesterday. I worked him, band him and slit the bag afterward. He had eat and done well until Sunday morning. He was a little stiff and didn't eat feed. I gave him a shot of Nuflor and figured he would be ok. Last night he still didnt eat and looked a little off. He had no breathing problems or discharge. Tonight when I went he was just standing there stiff as a board. His neck was out and his rear legs seemed stiff. I have decided he probably has Tetanus. I have never vaccinated so I guess it finally caught up to me. I have decided I will destroy and bury him tomorrow.
Now my question, is the Tetanus in the ground everywhere or how do they pick it up. Is burying him a good enough way of doing it? I can burn him if it would really help. But no reason for that it the bacteria is in the ground everywhere. He has not been out of my weaning lot so is it possible that it is only there?

 

[Lucky_P]

Kenny, it's 'out there'. Don't know that there's any greater risk, burying than burning. If you've got horses...C.tetani is sometimes present in their feces.
We lost a 3-4 month old heifer to tetanus last winter - never did determine her injury/exposure. Wife was initially convinced she was injured - saw a bigger cow flip her over into feed bunk, and couldn't get up - but after a couple of days messing around with her, it became all too evident that it was tetanus. Treated her with whopping doses of TAT and penicillin, but still died.
Have started using Cavalry 9 as my Clostridial vaccine for calves, as it contains tetanus toxoid.

 

[inyati13]

Clostridium tetani is ubiquitous in the environment. If you step on a nail, you risk exposure. I would not concern myself with disposal from the perspective of eliminating the organism. The clostridial vaccines that we all use like UltraChoice 8 do not address tetanus.

 

[inyati13]

KT, I just attended a meeting where the University of Kentucky professor spoke on composting dead cattle. It seems easy. If you have some manure piles, dig a hole and cover the calf with about four feet of manure. It is legal here in KY and the bacteria will dispose of the calf in short order. The pathogens are destroyed by the anaerobic conditions of composting. All except anthrax according to the professor.

 

[kenny thomas]

Kenny, it's 'out there'. Don't know that there's any greater risk, burying than burning. If you've got horses...C.tetani is sometimes present in their feces.
We lost a 3-4 month old heifer to tetanus last winter - never did determine her injury/exposure. Wife was initially convinced she was injured - saw a bigger cow flip her over into feed bunk, and couldn't get up - but after a couple of days messing around with her, it became all too evident that it was tetanus. Treated her with whopping doses of TAT and penicillin, but still died.
Have started using Cavalry 9 as my Clostridial vaccine for calves, as it contains tetanus toxoid.

We do not have horses nor has there been any there in years. But like all farms here there have been some work horses on it in the past.
Does the Calvary 9 require a booster. Bull calves brought in from the market get a dose of Inforce, Presponse, Alpha 7, Cydectin injectable wormer, ralgro, ear tagged and are castrated the same night they are bought. Do I need to hold off on the castrating? Because of my health issues I have been banding them and cutting the bottom off the sack. What needs done different? Sounds like I need to vaccinate them and then cut in 2 weeks and give a booster?

 

[kenny thomas]

KT, I just attended a meeting where the University of Kentucky professor spoke on composting dead cattle. It seems easy. If you have some manure piles, dig a hole and cover the calf with about four feet of manure. It is legal here in KY and the bacteria will dispose of the calf in short order. The pathogens are destroyed by the anaerobic conditions of composting. All except anthrax according to the professor.

No manure piles here. guess I will just bury him. I just can't stand to leave one on top of the ground. I know it does not matter much but thats just how I feel.

 

[inyati13]

KT, you may need to use both the tetanus toxoid and antitoxin to protect the calf from tetanus during casteration. The toxoid requires some time for an appropriate immune response. The antitoxin can he administered for immediate protection.

What I do is based to some extent on what Lucky has presented in the past. I give both a toxoid and antitoxin shot at the time of banding. Then follow-up with another toxoid in about two weeks.

Clostridial bacteria are interesting. They cause botulism, tetanus, backleg, gangrene, food poisoning, fatal intestinal infections, etc. They are a real power house when it comes to causing disease.

 

[Deepsouth]

Kenny, Calvary 9 does require a booster.

 

[boondocks]

Inyati, the manure composting questing is interesting. C. tetani is an obligate anaerobe which produces extremely hardy endospores; not sure how burying a cow with tetanus in a manure-laden pile (doubtless filled with more C. tetani) would kill it???

KT, can you just band them and not cut? I would think (as a practical matter) that would give less of an open wound for the bacteria to enter in through. It's quite virulent and doesn't need many cells at all to get going...

 

[msscamp]

Now my question, is the Tetanus in the ground everywhere or how do they pick it up.

Tetanus is in the ground, and it thrives in environments that do not get air - such as banded animals and deep puncture wounds.

 

[msscamp]

Now my question, is the Tetanus in the ground everywhere or how do they pick it up.

Tetanus is in the ground, and it thrives in environments that do not get air - such as banded animals and deep puncture wounds.

inyati13 - tetanus antitoxin cancels out tetanus toxoid, so you either need to give two doses of tetanus toxoid spaced 2 weeks apart with the 2nd dose given at the time or banding, or one dose of tetanus antitoxin given at the time of banding - not both.

Boondocks - cutting has nothing to do with developing tetanus. Tetanus is picked up from the ground, and requires an anerobic environment - such as banding creates - to thrive. The only way to prevent it is to vaccinate by either using one dose of tetanus antitoxin(short term protection) at the time of banding, or by giving 2 doses of tetanus toxoid - one 2 weeks prior to banding followed by a 2nd dose at the time of banding.

Kenny Thomas - yes, Calvary 9 does require 2 doses and, at certain ages of vaccination, they recommend a 3rd dose.

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html ... fgodtYEALg

 

[wbvs58]

An animal with tetanus is not a major source of contamination to the environment. A few bacteria in an anaerobic wound in an animal produces enough of the very potent toxin to have the effect. The organism lives in the GI tract of most animals quiet harmoniously and the spores passed in the faeces are very hardy and contaminate the environment especially dusty yards where they will get into wounds and especially those with a poor blood supply and then produce the toxin which produces the symptons of tetanus.
I would not be in a hurry to destroy the calf keep him in a darkened area, drain the wound and plenty of penicillin. TAT is pretty much useless at that stage. Cattle have a much higher survival rate than horses. I would think you have better than 50/50 chance of recovery. Remember dark and quite. But as always with something like this you have to assess on a daily basis whether to continue.
Ken

 

[inyati13]

Inyati, the manure composting questing is interesting. C. tetani is an obligate anaerobe which produces extremely hardy endospores; not sure how burying a cow with tetanus in a manure-laden pile (doubtless filled with more C. tetani) would kill it???

KT, can you just band them and not cut? I would think (as a practical matter) that would give less of an open wound for the bacteria to enter in through. It's quite virulent and doesn't need many cells at all to get going...

boondocks, understood. The premise is that C. tetani occurs in the environment including manure, thus, there is no basis for concerns about "spreading" it by composting. Going a step further, due to the occurence of C. tetani in the soil and on the surface of objects in the environment, there is no basis for concern of spreading it or increasing the population of C. tetani.

Having said that, the decomposition action (both aerobic and anaerobic, some composting operations employ oxygen) of the broad group of microorganisms that decompose organic tissue may also be more than C. tetani including the endospores can survive. The presentation by UK at our Cost Share meeting on the 9th addressed those cases where composting is inappropriate due to concern that the pathogens pose a risk. The only condition mentioned was anthax which also produces resistant endospores.

 

[inyati13]

Now my question, is the Tetanus in the ground everywhere or how do they pick it up.

Tetanus is in the ground, and it thrives in environments that do not get air - such as banded animals and deep puncture wounds.

inyati13 - tetanus antitoxin cancels out tetanus toxoid, so you either need to give two doses of tetanus toxoid spaced 2 weeks apart with the 2nd dose given at the time or banding, or one dose of tetanus antitoxin given at the time of banding - not both.
Boondocks - cutting has nothing to do with developing tetanus. Tetanus is picked up from the ground, and requires an anerobic environment - such as banding creates - to thrive. The only way to prevent it is to vaccinate by either using one dose of tetanus antitoxin(short term protection) at the time of banding, or by giving 2 doses of tetanus toxoid - one 2 weeks prior to banding followed by a 2nd dose at the time of banding.

Kenny Thomas - yes, Calvary 9 does require 2 doses and, at certain ages of vaccination, they recommend a 3rd dose.

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html ... fgodtYEALg

Preface: Antitoxin is for immediate response to the toxins C. tetani produces as waste products of its metabolism in a wound. The toxoid provides a longer term immune response to an infection of C. tetani and the toxins the bacteria produces. The organism produces the toxins but it is the toxins that kill the infected animal.

msscamp. It makes sense that the antitoxin would cancel the toxoid. But does it? Or has the vaccine preparations of both the toxoid and antitoxin been amended to prevent cancellation? It is an appropriate question considering that the tetanus vaccine makers may have methods to counteract the cancellation. I could not google an answer. Do you know of a reference handy? I focused on the interaction warnings and this circumstance is not addressed. Seems it would be an obvious warning unless they assume it is understood!

 

[milkmaid]

msscamp. It makes sense that the antitoxin would cancel the toxoid. But does it? Or has the vaccine preparations of both the toxoid and antitoxin been amended to prevent cancellation? It is an appropriate question considering that the tetanus vaccine makers may have methods to counteract the cancellation. I could not google an answer. Do you know of a reference handy? I focused on the interaction warnings and this circumstance is not addressed. Seems it would be an obvious warning unless they assume it is understood!

I've asked multiple times and not received a satisfactory answer. That said, it's fairly standard to administer both together following injuries.

Are you positive the calf has tetanus? if not, it may be worth having the calf examined.

 

[Lucky_P]

Have routinely been administering TAT & TT to animals - cattle & horses, for 30+ years, based on recommendations of my microbiology and immunology professors; cannot say that the thinking hasn't changed, but I'm unaware of it if it has. They complement one another, not cancel each other out - I just would not make the two injections in the same spot.

Ideal is to have two appropriate doses of TT administered to any animal that's at risk - but, as many folks are banding calves and larger bulls these days, I'd recommend a dose of TAT and TT at the time of band application and a booster of the TT 2-4 weeks later.
Have seen too many trainwrecks where TT was administered at the time of band application, and in the race between the organism/toxin and the animal' immune system...the bacteria win. As Louis Pasteur said, "C'est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." - the microbes will have the last word!

 

[inyati13]

msscamp. It makes sense that the antitoxin would cancel the toxoid. But does it? Or has the vaccine preparations of both the toxoid and antitoxin been amended to prevent cancellation? It is an appropriate question considering that the tetanus vaccine makers may have methods to counteract the cancellation. I could not google an answer. Do you know of a reference handy? I focused on the interaction warnings and this circumstance is not addressed. Seems it would be an obvious warning unless they assume it is understood!

I've asked multiple times and not received a satisfactory answer. That said, it's fairly standard to administer both together following injuries.

Are you positive the calf has tetanus? if not, it may be worth having the calf examined.

Thanks, milkmaid. Boy that feels good. I love to gloat. :lol:

msscamp, I was thinking about this all morning. A toxoid is not the same as the toxin that is a by-product of the tetani metabolism. The reason I thought they may not cancel each other out is because the antitoxin vaccine is not going to attack the toxoid in the same biochemical process as it would the toxin which is the purpose of the antitoxin. I concluded (not based on data) that perhaps the antitoxin would leave the toxoid alone and it would still provide the longer term immunity. I get my tetanus vaccines from Colorado Serum. I was considering calling them but if milkmaid has not gotten a response, I rest my case.

 

[wbvs58]

Most of the animals I have seen with tetanus have been horses and the majority of those have not had a recent open wound or puncture. My understanding is that the spores can enter the body through a wound and enter the blood stream and lodge in places like the muscle and while there is a good blood supply they lie dormant and can do so for several months. If something like bruising occurs and blood supply to that area becomes a bit stagnant then they start to multiply releasing the toxin. I have seen a couple of horses with tetanus after being transported long distances in open crates on trucks with other horses so would have had a bit of bruising. Farriers often get the blame for pricking a horse and not telling anyone about it but I doubt that this is the case.
The point of this tale is whether it is cattle or horses don't wait for an event to try and prevent it but to have them vaccinated well before a procedure.
Tonsillitis and teething in dogs is the major origin for tetanus in that species.
Ken

 

[msscamp]

Preface: Antitoxin is for immediate response to the toxins C. tetani produces as waste products of its metabolism in a wound. The toxoid provides a longer term immune response to an infection of C. tetani and the toxins the bacteria produces. The organism produces the toxins but it is the toxins that kill the infected animal.

msscamp. It makes sense that the antitoxin would cancel the toxoid. But does it? Or has the vaccine preparations of both the toxoid and antitoxin been amended to prevent cancellation? It is an appropriate question considering that the tetanus vaccine makers may have methods to counteract the cancellation. I could not google an answer. Do you know of a reference handy? I focused on the interaction warnings and this circumstance is not addressed. Seems it would be an obvious warning unless they assume it is understood!

I am wrong, and I stand corrected! I checked the Merck Veterinary Manual, and it says tetanus antitoxin and tetanus toxoid SHOULD be given together in severe cases. I should have checked it prior to posting, and I apologize for my error.

 

[inyati13]

Preface: Antitoxin is for immediate response to the toxins C. tetani produces as waste products of its metabolism in a wound. The toxoid provides a longer term immune response to an infection of C. tetani and the toxins the bacteria produces. The organism produces the toxins but it is the toxins that kill the infected animal.

msscamp. It makes sense that the antitoxin would cancel the toxoid. But does it? Or has the vaccine preparations of both the toxoid and antitoxin been amended to prevent cancellation? It is an appropriate question considering that the tetanus vaccine makers may have methods to counteract the cancellation. I could not google an answer. Do you know of a reference handy? I focused on the interaction warnings and this circumstance is not addressed. Seems it would be an obvious warning unless they assume it is understood!

I am wrong, and I stand corrected! I checked the Merck Veterinary Manual, and it says tetanus antitoxin and tetanus toxoid SHOULD be given together in severe cases. I should have checked it prior to posting, and I apologize for my error.

I think you are a person of substance. No apology is called for. It was an excellent opportunity for learning. Maybe others who did not come into the discussion benefited by the exchange. BTW: I was only joking about the Gloating. I enjoy a good exchange like this with all these knowledgeable folks like you, milkmaid, Ken and Lucky. I enjoy this more than I do entertaining my friends with humor. You are too gracious. Thanks.