Terminal Sires (Where do they come from?)

[aplusmnt]

It has been said a few times that retaining cattle out of terminal sires will set you backwards in your herd development.

Got me curious where these Terminal sires come from then? Would you not need some cows and use bulls that will throw Bulls with Terminal epd's to sale to those wanting to purchase terminal sires?

This might be a green horn question, but trying to figure out how seedstock producers selling terminal bulls are getting them if they are not using cows and bulls that support this type of growth?

 

[novatech]

Terminal sires are only a breed selected to give you the product that you feel will bring you the best money at the market, or put the best meat on your table, or other things you may want to breed for. These are not sires that you would use to breed for replacement heifers. You would chose for EPD's accordingly.
Angus cross with herford cow then cross with char. for terminal my be an example. Those combinations would be endless if you were to ask what would be the best.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I understand what you are asking. If the bull is terminal - than doesn't that mean his dam was terminal :shock:
Sort of?? - As mentioned, Charolais, as a breed, is considered a "terminal" breed. Doesn't mean that the females aren't good breeders. Just that the "best" asset the bull puts into the "mix" is growth. If you were looking for milk, you would be looking at different breeds.
But, there are bulls that can be used for terminal that would also be maternal. With the use of EPD's, breeds have been able to develop lines that carry both assets.
Terminal bulls are generally GROWTH bulls - but not necessarilly ONLY growth.

 

[dun]

In addition to waht Jeanne said, one persons terminal bull/breed may not be anothers. We've used Angus bulls in the past as a termianl cross. What some folks look for may not be what others are wanting. Sometimes a terminal bull of any breed seems to just be a fluke. The mating of the sire and dam just turn out an oddball that doesn;t match up with what wouldbe expected.

dun

 

[Aero]

in my opinion, terminal bulls come from breeders who make terminal-type animals out of terminal type cows bred to terminal-type bulls. in general, these are animals that have been bred for max growth, max carcass and above average frame. ERT's like fertility, longevity and low maintenance are very low on the list to these breeders. for maternal cows, i want the exact opposite. when you retain females out of this cross, you are moving your cow herd in the terminal direction. some will tell you that their animals are great for growth, muscle, carcass, phenotype, fertility, longevity, and probably poop gold too. if they arent near average for all of those things, they are giving up one for the other. i choose to give up some terminal traits for more economically relvant ones.

 

[3MR]

Basically any sire that is bred to a cow with the intent of slaughtering the offspring is a terminal sire. Everything else stated is just an opinion on what to look for in a terminal sire and goes more to management than what an actual terminal sire is by definition.

 

[*Cowgirl*]

your definition of terminal might vary from mine or somenone else's.

 

[3MR]

your definition of terminal might vary from mine or somenone else's.

So you have a definition of a terminal sire that doesnt include slaughter, ie: "termination", of the offspring?

If so your right, our definitions would definitely be different, even at odds as it would be the opposite of my definition.

PS: Please dont think I am trying to be argumentative as Im not. :lol:

 

[alftn]

The word terminal does not really reflect on the sire(he is usually a pure blood animal) it is the calves that are terminal....Usally the calves are a three way cross for hybrid vigor...Ie a good southern cross might be Hereford X Brahma (F1 tiger stripes) mothers to a Black limm bull..or so I understand the word terminal to be (calves that have English, european, and indian cattle in them),for the most hybrid vigor....

 

[Caustic Burno]

It has been said a few times that retaining cattle out of terminal sires will set you backwards in your herd development.

Got me curious where these Terminal sires come from then? Would you not need some cows and use bulls that will throw Bulls with Terminal epd's to sale to those wanting to purchase terminal sires?

This might be a green horn question, but trying to figure out how seedstock producers selling terminal bulls are getting them if they are not using cows and bulls that support this type of growth?

You can get to mongrolized in your herd to pick a bull to give you the pounds you are looking for, as one poster put it the calfs are ternminal.
Commercial cattlemen set the industry not the seedstock producer.
The commercial cattle sells pounds at the salebarn he is looking for that Char bull on heavy influenced Herfs to get that high yellow with max pounds as an example. You will never get the growth out of either purebreed as you will the hybred cross.

 

[*Cowgirl*]

your definition of terminal might vary from mine or somenone else's.

So you have a definition of a terminal sire that doesnt include slaughter, ie: "termination", of the offspring?

If so your right, our definitions would definitely be different, even at odds as it would be the opposite of my definition.

PS: Please dont think I am trying to be argumentative as Im not. :lol:

sorry need to clarify. some people might use a (by common definition) "terminal" sire to add growth and pounds to their cow herd. If so then to them, it's not really a "terminal" sire

 

[auctionboy]

your definition of terminal might vary from mine or somenone else's.

So you have a definition of a terminal sire that doesnt include slaughter, ie: "termination", of the offspring?

If so your right, our definitions would definitely be different, even at odds as it would be the opposite of my definition.

PS: Please dont think I am trying to be argumentative as Im not. :lol:

sorry need to clarify. some people might use a (by common definition) "terminal" sire to add growth and pounds to their cow herd. If so then to them, it's not really a "terminal" sire

Anybody can go breeding bigger and bigger cows, but efficents is usually lost along with many other things so for the most part if you are not breeding these cattle to sell bulls or thick heifers that you will breed to get more bulls then the animals are not good replacements for a commercial herd.

 

[MikeC]

Terminal sires are simply the ones who are not expected to be genetically prediposed to pass on the necessary maternal traits that dams should posess.

They more than make up for these insufficiences by passing traits that are more coinciding with producing beef.

Some bulls of most all breeds can do both at once with moderation.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

Terminal sires are simply the ones who are not expected to be genetically prediposed to pass on the necessary maternal traits that dams should posess.

They more than make up for these insufficiences by passing traits that are more coinciding with producing beef.

• Some bulls of most all breeds can do both at once with moderation

.

i wonder how many cows can do both. how many folks would use a angus bull with high birthweights and low milking epd's as a terminal sire, most folk's would shy away because there cow's might not be able to handle the task

 

[dun]

i wonder how many cows can do both. how many folks would use a angus bull with high birthweights and low milking epd's as a terminal sire, most folk's would shy away because there cow's might not be able to handle the task

The BW and heavy WW or YW are not mutually exclusive. There are bulls that can do both.

dun

 

[ALACOWMAN]

i wonder how many cows can do both. how many folks would use a angus bull with high birthweights and low milking epd's as a terminal sire, most folk's would shy away because there cow's might not be able to handle the task

The BW and heavy WW or YW are not mutually exclusive. There are bulls that can do both.

dun

i agree 100% theres bulls capable of both. its the moma's im talking about.is she equip to bring that terminal side to its genetic potentail.... can she do both? you want as many pounds out of that terminal calf as you can get but the momas got to put them on it.

 

[msscamp]

Basically any sire that is bred to a cow with the intent of slaughtering the offspring is a terminal sire. Everything else stated is just an opinion on what to look for in a terminal sire and goes more to management than what an actual terminal sire is by definition.

Maybe I'm off base here 3MR, but does your definition include the heifer calves? What if they are good enough to be replacement heifers, and become just that? Does that still make the breeder a terminal breeder?

 

[3MR]

Basically any sire that is bred to a cow with the intent of slaughtering the offspring is a terminal sire. Everything else stated is just an opinion on what to look for in a terminal sire and goes more to management than what an actual terminal sire is by definition.

Maybe I'm off base here 3MR, but does your definition include the heifer calves? What if they are good enough to be replacement heifers, and become just that? Does that still make the breeder a terminal breeder?

Yeah, if your intent when you bred them was to slaughter the offspring. The final outcome isnt important. One persons teminal sire may not be another persons, but it doesnt change the fact that it was a terminal sire when the associated person used them.

If the definition of a terminal sire was based upon the eventual outcome of the off spring and not the planned outcome then nobody would ever actualy use a terminal sire as they can only plan on what they want to do with the offspring. You cant use the same bull for all your cows then call it a terminal sire for the steers and not the heifers. I suppose with really good accuretly sexed semen you could maybe, but not realistically.

 

[msscamp]

Basically any sire that is bred to a cow with the intent of slaughtering the offspring is a terminal sire. Everything else stated is just an opinion on what to look for in a terminal sire and goes more to management than what an actual terminal sire is by definition.

Maybe I'm off base here 3MR, but does your definition include the heifer calves? What if they are good enough to be replacement heifers, and become just that? Does that still make the breeder a terminal breeder?

Yeah, if your intent when you bred them was to slaughter the offspring. The final outcome isnt important. One persons teminal sire may not be another persons, but it doesnt change the fact that it was a terminal sire when the associated person used them.

If the definition of a terminal sire was based upon the eventual outcome of the off spring and not the planned outcome then nobody would ever actualy use a terminal sire as they can only plan on what they want to do with the offspring. You cant use the same bull for all your cows then call it a terminal sire for the steers and not the heifers. I suppose with really good accuretly sexed semen you could maybe, but not realistically.

Ok, I see what you're saying. Thanks!