Terminal sire recommendations

[bullred]

I recently bought 25 F1 tigerstripes that are bred to either a registered Angus, or registered Brangus bull. They are all three years old and have had at least one calf, and are a prety good size frame. They'll start calving in Nov and I'll be needing a bull to breed them back after they all calve out. Originally my first thought was an Angus bull for sure. But now I'm considering other options.

I've looked at Charolais, but am a little scared of calving problems. I live about 25 minutes from the pasture, so I can't be there all the time. Over the last day or two I've given some thought to a Limousin bull. Any thoughts or recommendations y'all could give would be appreciated.

As a side note, I've already spoken for an Angus bull calf from my father-in-law, but he won't be old enough for this breeding season. My plan is to expand the herd to about 40 cows eventually, so I can use the Angus down the road on any heifers I pick up as replacements.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

CJ

 

[farmer rich]

I would use a charolais on those cows with no history of calving difficulty and cull the others. If you make calving ease a priority when selecting your bull you should not have any trouble with the charolais. In any case the increased value of the calf crop should more than make up for a little more attention and vigalence around calving time.

 

[dun]

It mostly, IMO, depends on your market. If you sell at the salebarn and don;t plan on retaining any heifers the a true terminal YG type sire would work. Limo, Gelbvieh, Simmenthal of the extreme WW/YW variety with decent calving ease and no concern to daughters calving ease, disposition, mature frame size, marbeling or milk.
If you'll retain ownership either partial or complete, or sell to a quality grade grid, and won;t retain any heifers, you could go with a terminal Angus bull.
The trick comes in if you may retain any heifers. Then you need to look at a compromise between the daughters calving ease, disposition, mature frame size and milk, and you may have a concern for marbeling depending on your marketing.

dun

 

[Ryder]

I would use a charolais on those cows with no history of calving difficulty and cull the others. If you make calving ease a priority when selecting your bull you should not have any trouble with the charolais. In any case the increased value of the calf crop should more than make up for a little more attention and vigalence around calving time.

I agree with Rich on the 'right' Charolais bull. If they were first calf heifers I would lean toward Angus.

See article this CT site, archives, June 2005, "First Cross Builds Gulf Coast Factory". Speaks of Angus on tiger heifers but that Charolais also works well on tiger cows. I guess he is talking about heifers and older cows. Either breed of sire should work. I would favor Charolais for the terminal. But that is just my personal preference. It's your call.

 

[branxchar&charx]

If all the cows have already had at least one calf, I would go with the charolais on the terminal sire. After the first calf, cows usually dont have a problem with a charolais calf, just dont go and pick out a bull with a HUGE birth weight. If you had a chance to look at the bulls that they were bred to, I would see about keeping a few heifers as replacements, if that is what you are going for and dont mind having a few black or whatever. BUT do not breed the heifers back to a charolais, especially since the heifers themselves arent charolais.

 

[Beefy]

if they were mine i'd wait until after the 2nd calf to breed to charolais. personally i've had heifers calve fine the first time and then have difficulty with the second calf. this was due to a crappy limousin bull mostly though. if you go the limo route be just as careful picking him out as you would be with a charolais. i would go back with a brangus or angus bull, and keep heifers to later breed back to the angus bull. if you want to keep your own heifers to expand with.. some prefer to use their own, some prefer to buy. whatever.

 

[Anonymous]

I would use either a salers bull as they are known for calving ease or perhaps a gelbviehXangus balancer bull. I have seen to many charolais breeders have to use the birthing chains on every single calf. You live 25 minutes from the pasture thus a charolais bull would not be a good idea. Ive seen salers calves and balancer calves hit the ground running literally. The salers calves will be small but will grow rapidly. However look for a bull that is not really muscled in the front. The more muscled in the front the more likely they are to have calving problems. If you want something you dont have to babysit and use the birthing chains on go with again a salers bull or a balancer bull. This is just my opinion but I have proven time and time again that salers bulls and balancer bulls work. Ive never had calving problems with my 41 cows. If you go charolais you will be sorry. Limousin bulls are ornery and every damned one I have seen was dangerous. Besides that they are heavily muscled in the front and have calving problems. An angus bull would be fine as well. Again just make sure he is not to heavily muscled in the front end. This normally means he will have somewhat of a calving problem. The salers have the largest pelvic area of any cattle breed therefore they have little to no calving problems.

 

[farmer rich]

Regardless of how far away you live you should be checking on those cows every 4-6 hours while they are calving. Even if you have to camp out there a few nights, you have a responsibility to those cattle whatever bull you use. If that isn't possible you shouldn't be keeping cows, simple as that.

 

[George]

I agree with you a 100% farmer rich.If a person can't look after them properly,then sell them and let someone else that will.

 

[Brandonm2]

You aren't going to be able to see them regularly more than once a day if it is a 50 mile haul roundtrip AND you have a full time job too. Calving ease would be my priority under those circumstance. Go with an Angus in the top 25% of the breed for birth weight.

 

[farmer rich]

You aren't going to be able to see them regularly more than once a day if it is a 50 mile haul roundtrip AND you have a full time job too. Calving ease would be my priority under those circumstance. Go with an Angus in the top 25% of the breed for birth weight.

If you can only see them once a day then maybe breeding cattle isn't such a good idea, why not run a few steers if you want the interest or buy a few pairs.

 

[Brandonm2]

He already has the cows. I do think you are right that under the circumstances he might be better off in the future selling all the heifers and buying young bred cows rather than letting heifers calve completely on their own. I have never been to Britain; but many people around here only see their cows one time a day (if that). I don't recommend it; but around here where MOST beef producers have a full time job the cows pretty much have to make it on their own. My Grandfather worked 50-70 hours a week and ran 100+++ whiteface mama cows as a sideline for 30 years.

 

[MoGal]

"They are all three years old and have had at least one calf, and are a prety good size frame. They'll start calving in Nov and I'll be needing a bull to breed them back after they all calve out."

I think some of em missed your sentence here.... so you are breeding them back for a 3rd or possibly 4th calf... you could use a charolais, I would think w/o having problems at all.

 

[MikeC]

I have seen to many charolais breeders have to use the birthing chains on every single calf.

That's funny. All my cows and several of my neighbors breed exclusively to Charolais, including heifers with no problems. Only calves we have to pull are breech.

The ones around here that have problems are the Brangus. One neighbor pulled 15 out of 15 brangus heifers two years ago, bred to Brangus bulls. But that's not saying the whole Brangus herd has trouble with calving. I say someone made mistakes and it is an isolated incidence.

I guess some people just don't know how to develop a heifer or buy a bull, do they?

Just how many Charolais breeders have you seen that had to use the chains on every single calf? I don't suppose you could back that statement up with anything but talk, could you?

I simply do not believe you have seen it.

 

[bullred]

Thanks for all the advice and recommendations. I even appreciate the advice of those recommending I sell all my cows and get out of the cattle business! However, I think I'll chance it a little longer.

Yes, these are all bred cows that have had at least two calves already. So I'm not particularily worried about calving problems, especially since they're currently bred back to Angus or Brangus bulls. I don't think I need to pitch a tent on the pasture for a couple of months during calving season, although I will be making as many trips out to check on them as I can. Twice a day when they start calving shouldn't be too hard to do.

My thought on the Charolais is that what I loose by not having a black calf, I'll make up for in gross body weight. I plan on buying all my replacements and not retaining any heifers. Also, I'll have the Angus bull season after next if I pick up any heifers. My thought on the Limousin was that I'd get a black calf that would be a little larger at weaning than with the Angus. I just don't know much about Limousins. If they are tempremental, or high maintenance I'd just as soon pass on them.

CJ

 

[MikeC]

If you go charolais you will be sorry.

What a crock! I sell several Charolais bulls every year to repeat customers. I have never had a complaint.

There are other ways to push your Salers than by cutting other breeds down with lies!

Do you have any proof of the Salers having the largest pelvic sizes? I didn't think so.

I like your name "Commercialcattleman", you sound just like a TV commercial. You will say anything to make a sale.

 

[BRG]

I agree with Mike. It doesn't matter which breed you use their will be problems. Maybe the older type Charalais did have a problem, but that is pretty much fixed. I am a Red Angus breeder and I have seen lots of calves pulled in this breed, and lots in the Black Angus breed as well. Some lines just don't work. You need to eliminate the problems and move on, like the Charalais breed has and most other seedstock producer try to do.

 

[Anonymous]

I have lots of cattleman friends that have charolais and they all say those big charolais I like their growth but I hate pulling their calves. In fact I have helped them with every calve that they have pulled and it was on every charolais heifer they had that was bred to supposedly some expensive 10,000 dollar charolais bulls. The ones that he bred to angus that had the smoke gray calves had no problems calving. The old man that I bought my balancer females from had charolais and had a good charolais bull as well an expensive one from the same herd as the aformentioned had to pull everyone of his calves and i had to help as he is almost 80 and has noone to help. I have just seen to many problems to count with charolais even high priced one that I have been turned off by the breed. So believe that. If you dont well frankly i dont care really. Yeah these bulls dropped some good calves on the ground that were really growthy but they were hard calving so it wasnt really worth it.you can believe that aliens stole one of your cow babies if it disappeared for all I care.

 

[ollie]

I agree with Mike as well. Lots of good bulls in every breed . I just think your knowledge is limited Commercial Cattleman from Tenn.
Editing just to also say I am fairly familiar with the Saler breed and like other breeds there is junk , junk , junk . Lots of them with pedigrees, epds, and promotion behind them. They are not a perfect breed by any means. Neither is any other.

 

[J. T.]

A gentleman that lives in my county that was a full time cattleman switched his operation from purebred Brafords to a commercial operation. He ran Simmentals and Charolais bulls with his Braford cows and got some of the fleshiest, highest weaning calves I ever saw. Both crosses did exceedingly well.