Terminal or Maternal

[rain dance]

Not sure which section this should go in so here it goes. I am at the point where i need to make a decision on which way to go as far as what to breed for and if I should buy replacement heifers or make my own. 2/3 of my herd is black angus with the rest being some baldies and then some oddballs. I subscribe to the way of thinking of raising easy fleshing cattle focusing on maternal traits. I really like the pinebank angus influenced cattle and would like to ai to them and improve my genetics.

That said after seeing what cross breeding can do I wonder if I would be farther ahead to just get a char bull and then buy all black baldie replacement heifers in the future and take advantage of the cross breeding and making things a lot easier on myself. I would have much larger groups of calves to sell by not keeping any back and they would be much heavier and probably sell better. The larger groups of calves sell much better obviously and the char influenced sell well here and then there is the hetoris advantage in health and weaning weight as well as more growth for the feeder. It seems much more straightforward and easier to do this.

If i could actually buy the style of replacement heifers for a good price that I want this is what I would do. However most people think maternal means milks well. Being a easy keeper and having longevity and fertility are worth giving up for a extra 20 lbs of weaning weight in alot of peoples minds. So I would probably just put in a order for someone to find me some blakck baldies that where sold as feeders and I get what I get.

Thoughts?

 

[Lazy M]

Struggled with this myself. My solution is that I ai a portion of my cows to maternal oriented bulls and purchase terminal type bulls for the rest of my cattle and clean up. I only keep replacements from the ai.

 

[WalnutCrest]

As I've thought on this, here's my answer ...

AI the cows and heifers to the bull or bulls you want them have a terminal cleanup bull.

In other words, I agree with Lazy M.

 

[Silver]

One fella's terminal is another fella's maternal.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

One fella's terminal is another fella's maternal.

lota truth right there...

 

[Son of Butch]

I think flexibility as to where we are in the cattle cycle would probably be the most profitable strategy.
Right now buying bred replacements and breeding everything terminal would seem to be the way to go.
I expect that to change in a couple of years and at that time Lazy M's advice would probably work best.

 

[cow pollinater]

Honestly, if I didn't believe that I have the genetics on hand to make a better cow than what my neighbors are making I'd buy running age cows and breed them all terminal and never look back.

 

[Lazy M]

I think flexibility as to where we are in the cattle cycle would probably be the most profitable strategy.
Right now buying bred replacements and breeding everything terminal would seem to be the way to go.
I expect that to change in a couple of years and at that time Lazy M's advice would probably work best.

Never had good luck buying breds. No one is going to sell you their top cattle, and if they will they'll make it hurt your wallet. Not bragging but I believe I can grow a better cow than I can buy.

 

[elkwc]

I think flexibility as to where we are in the cattle cycle would probably be the most profitable strategy.
Right now buying bred replacements and breeding everything terminal would seem to be the way to go.
I expect that to change in a couple of years and at that time Lazy M's advice would probably work best.

Never had good luck buying breds. No one is going to sell you their top cattle, and if they will they'll make it hurt your wallet. Not bragging but I believe I can grow a better cow than I can buy.

I agree 100%. We have been retaining heifers and have way less cull rate on them. We did buy a few top Hereford open heifers from a local PB breeder last year and will likely buy a few more this year. The other advantage I like about breeding the heifers ourself is we can control what they are bred too. We used one of those sleep all night heifer bulls last year and glad we only bred 5 heifers to him.

 

[Brute 23]

I agree. If you are just trying to produce a calf to sell then buy cows. If you want to build a herd keep your replacements.

 

[rain dance]

Well the more I think about it using ai like some suggested and then coming in with a big black Simmental makes the most sense. Even though I love the char calves then everything would be black or a black baldie so what I didn't want to keep back would sell as a group better. I only have 30 some cows so if I say had 10 heifers i kept back then had 10 black steers from the ai to sell and then 10 big char calves those 10 char calves even though individually better it would probably make more sense to have a solid black consistent group.

 

[elkwc]

Well the more I think about it using ai like some suggested and then coming in with a big black Simmental makes the most sense. Even though I love the char calves then everything would be black or a black baldie so what I didn't want to keep back would sell as a group better. I only have 30 some cows so if I say had 10 heifers i kept back then had 10 black steers from the ai to sell and then 10 big char calves those 10 char calves even though individually better it would probably make more sense to have a solid black consistent group.

We each have to decide what works for us and will make the most money for us. Sounds like a plan. Does the black Simmies sell good in your area? They are docked here. Some big lot managers have stated they want absolutely no more than 25% Limmie or Simmie in what they buy. I know each region is different.

 

[rain dance]

Sim Angus bulls are very popular here.Some people have recomended a sim angus without me asking. I have not picked out any going through the ring to be honest and its been a while sine I have been to the sales. I will admit I probably have seen some sell but dont have the eye to pick out a 25% simmental 75% black anngus calve as apoosed to a full blood angus while running through the ring. What I do know is that black sells well big groups of blacks sell even better and cross breeding adds lbs and the calfs seem to be healthier in my limited experience. I just figrured with a pure blood black simmental I would get more hybryd vigor and make it a little easer on myself to tell the calfs apart from the ai ones

Why do they not want simmental? I would never want to keep heifers out of a sim but they really seem to grow well.

 

[Silver]

Why do they not want simmental? I would never want to keep heifers out of a sim but they really seem to grow well.

Who is "They"? Around here straight Simmies (traditionally coloured) outsell straight BA every time. Although it is very seldom you see the two in the same weight class. As I stated earlier, I've never been to a sale where black Angus calves took home the most dollars per head.
Why would you not keep a heifer out of a Sim? :???:

 

[cattleman99]

If you want to make replacements breed them all Simmental. They will make your blacks better. More maternal power. If reds sell well in your area buy a Fullblood non diluter bull as you could get a few from your black cows. If they don't get a black bull.

 

[Bestoutwest]

Wouldn't a good place to start this project is to have all the cows a similar breed/type so that there is some consistency for choosing a bull? That is the goal I'm working toward is to have all Angus cattle that are similar so that the bull becomes the only variable and not him plus the cows. Is this good, solid thinking?

 

[rain dance]

Yes it would be but I had the opportunity to buy a intact young herd that i really liked for a good price as opposed to buying other peoples throw away cows. Purebred herds are really hard to find here.

 

[elkwc]

[
Why do they not want simmental? I would never want to keep heifers out of a sim but they really seem to grow well.[/quote]

The simple answer is profit. Feeders are just like the cow/calf breeder. They want to make money. I have a BIL who fed cattle for over 35 years along with owning an interest in a sale barn for around ten and running stockers his whole life until he recently rented everything out and retired. Like him and others have told me they bought and fed what made the most money. They would buy cattle that didn't feed and grade as well if they could buy them cheap enough too offset the increased cost of feeding them and to cover those that didn't grade as well. I have a close friend who has managed a very large lot(around 60,000) head for many years. He has told me what they prefer and what feeds and grades the best. These men along with others I know have first hand experience. They have invested their own money and fed thousands of head. Many that make comments about how well a certain breed or bloodline gorw or feed have never fed one pen of cattle out let alone several every year. I agree to the novice it is hard to tell in the brief time cattle are in the ring if they are basically Angus or a cross that is black or a black simmie or limmie. To the feeder buyer who looks at many cattle everyday they can tell at first glimpse. Their job depends on it. The lots they buy for keep track of what buyer bought what and where they came from. Like a recent post on here that talked about a breeder who got by selling black calves with Holstein in them for a few years and then the prices dropped. Anything that don't feed well the buyer will be told about. I don't have anything against Black Simmentals or Simmentals. I just know how they get docked here and for that reason haven't bought a bull. Tried to buy some females to experiment with a little but the local Black Simmental breeder wouldn't sell any. He wanted me to buy a bull instead. If they sell well in your area I would say go for it. I only asked the question as I know they don't sell as well around here. We have a neighbor who used a Black white faced Simmie for a few years. His calves last year were docked heavy. I understand he is going to feed out at least some of the calves this year and sell the beef. They are good quality calves but they don't weigh anymore than our straight Angus at weaning. Like I've stated before here the top selling animal is the Hereford/Angus baldie. I know it varies by region but they have been the king for years.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

elkwc - where are you located?

 

[Stocker Steve]

I think flexibility as to where we are in the cattle cycle would probably be the most profitable strategy. Right now buying bred replacements and breeding everything terminal would seem to be the way to go.
I expect that to change in a couple of years and at that time Lazy M's advice would probably work best.

Yes.

Every year is different. There are 3 to 4 years in a cattle price cycle where retaining COMMERCIAL heifers makes financial sense. PM me if you have identified those years. :?

As others have said - - buy terminal bulls and you can still dabble with planned AI matings. I have used AI on heifers for a while now and have some fancy 75% AI calves. Wish I had more.

I butcher about three head every year so that makes me a feedlot expert. ;-) I think simi cross calves are growthy, but may not grade as well as some other breeds. Your thoughts?