Tail Docking

[hillsdown]

If it's a gun dog, the purpose is to prevent the tail being injured in the bush.
At one time many farm dog owners were holding out on obeying the law to have their dogs wearing collars (with registration attached) for the same reason - they could get hung up in hedges and fences and strangle the dog.
(just some useless data absorbed during thesis research)

Personally, I think the use of the word 'excuse' by a new poster quite revealing.

Usually stalls were sized for the type of cow housed, to ensure that soiling was rare. Grassfed cattle are a whole different story - and even many of you who house and feed TMR/silages would graze cows outside during summer?

We tried it for a summer but production went way down and was not worth it. Dry cows were grazed on pasture though during summer months.

 

[hillsdown]

You will get the same benefits by providing clean sawdust bedding

I know exactly what you are saying, with our own animals we have always used sawdust as their bedding. But most dairy farms locally use a form of sand to line the stalls, people tell me that it is actually much more comfortable for the animal when it lays down, but it absorbs more slowly and not as much as sawdust does. -- So that is an excuse that they use when explaining why the docking of the tail must take place.

NO it's not an excuse. It's a preference and does actually accomplish it's purpose...I bedded my cattle on sand with no problems. Most of the time cows don't pee or take a dump in their stall anyway.........what do these animal rights people think about cutting the tails off the many varies of dogs??? What is the purpose and what are is the purpose ?

Well TB you must have had magic cows because every cow that we have/had takes a shytt in their stall ,they do it standing or laying down and the first thing they do when you put new sawdust in them, is to go to the stall and pee and poop.. :roll: Thus the need to rake the stalls a minimum of twice a day.

 

[Holly]

NO it's not an excuse. It's a preference and does actually accomplish it's purpose...I bedded my cattle on sand with no problems. Most of the time cows don't pee or take a dump in their stall anyway.........what do these animal rights people think about cutting the tails off the many varies of dogs??? What is the purpose and what are is the purpose?

Well I have read some studies recently that say that a very small percentage of people that do dock, do so after the age of two months old, and that even a smaller percentage of farmers use the severing method (using a tool which resembles pruning sheers). Most owners simply band the tail when the calf is still quite young and it ends up falling off on its own. It is quite obvious to me that there is a way to perform the procedure, which most farmers understand, that reduces the pain and longterm effects.

I would assume that most animal rights groups are opposed to docking the tails of dogs, as they are with cattle. Bills have also been introduced in NY to ban this among dogs but groups such as the American Kennel Club have a lot of resources and connections. The AKC meets with the Senators and Assembly persons and explains that if the bill passes it will dramatically change the way the Kennel Club conducts business. They say it would eliminate AKC dog shows from the state, their business would go to other states, and there are too many breeds to count which in order to meet AKC standards must have a docked, cropped, or otherwise altered tail.

 

[Workinonit Farm]

and there are too many breeds to count which in order to meet AKC standards must have a docked, cropped, or otherwise altered tail.

Anywhere in that bill does it mention altering the ears of various dog breeds? Boxers, Dobermans, Great danes, Staffordshire terriers etc.

Katherine

 

[hillsdown]

I don`t want to sound like a peta or husa person because I am most definately far far from it, but I do not like tail docking or cropping for any breed unless it is for the saftey ,,, welfare ,, of the animal.

 

[regolith]

"I'm not a sandal wearing hippie but..." :roll: :roll:

(actually said by a farmer at a meeting I attended).
HD, some of these organisations have given 'animal welfare' such a bad name that people who *actually* work day to day wih animals are reluctant to be associated with the phrase.

I know some of us have different ideas about what the minimum standards are, or should be.
I also know that almost every dairy farmer I've worked with or for has a strong interest in the good welfare and health of his animals. (I need to make one exception that I've worked for, and also note that my current farm owners apparently think it all above board to endanger my stock.)

Holly, couldn't quote you the science but while it still guides the legislation, I believe it's an old and now thoroughly disproved notion that painful procedures can be done at an early age without pain relief. An infant's inability to express pain does not mean it can't feel it.
Did you find these studies on-line? I wouldn't mind having a look at them.

You know one of the more bizarre things is that a couple I know who treat their cows very, very well, dock every single one of them. But that's on-board with one of the pre-ban studies I saw that tried to find a difference in attitude or practices between farmers who docked and those who didn't, and found none.

 

[TexasBred]

HD my cows were "ladies". :lol2: :lol2: Once in a great while one would ooozze out a dump while laying down. Even then 90% of it rolled over the curb at the end of the stall. They also seldom would take a dump while being milked. Just stand quietly and chew their cud. I guess I need to come up there and do some training with your ladies. retty: retty: ;-)

 

[Workinonit Farm]

I don`t want to sound like a peta or husa person because I am most definately far far from it, but I do not like tail docking or cropping for any breed unless it is for the saftey ,,, welfare ,, of the animal.

I feel the same way. If I have given the impression that I am a firm believer of docking and cropping, then I need to find a way to articulate myself better.

I was wondering if anything about ear cropping was mentioned in the bill regarding banning such procedures.

I know that in several states of the US docking of horse tails is not legal. Regarding the horse tail issue, if all that long hair is in the way of equipment and such, then one should put it up in a "polo" knot.

Katherine

 

[hillsdown]

Katherine, my post was not directed at you, you were very articulate in it and everyone understood what you meant. I too would like to read that whole bill ,,JC ..
I totally agree with you about horses. I am wondering what the purpose is for cropping a DP's ears to begin with as I am not familiar with the breed and if it is for a health issue. Someone please enlighten me ,as well as the docking of tails in Aussies, Rotties etc.. :?

 

[Workinonit Farm]

I am wondering what the purpose is for cropping a DP's ears to begin with as I am not familiar with the breed and if it is for a health issue.

My understanding on the issue of cropping the ears of Dobermans, Boxers and Great Danes goes back in time to the "purpose" of developing those breeds as guard/police type dogs. The cropped ears, standing up, gave the dog the appearance of looking alert and more "serious". As to the cropping of the ears of Pit Bulls, it is to have less ear for other dogs to tear off.

The history behind the docking of tails on the above mentioned breeds of dogs, I'm not too sure. For Rotties, perhaps it was to keep the tail out of the way when the dogs were used for pulling carts? I don't know.

Katherine

 

[Holly]

Anywhere in that bill does it mention altering the ears of various dog breeds? Boxers, Dobermans, Great danes, Staffordshire terriers etc. Katherine

The bill is specifically proposing a ban on the docking of dog's tails, with no wording referring to the cropping of their ears. I would almost guarantee that a bill was introduced dealing with the ear issue, I'm not sure about other states but here we have legislators who are very willing to portray themselves as the person who will single-handedly save all animals, Senators and Assembly Members sometimes argue over who will get the honor of introducing animal legislation. The bill in question is A7218, but I would like to stress the fact that this piece of legislation is really going nowhere, it doesn't even have a sponsor in the Senate.

 

[Holly]

Holly, couldn't quote you the science but while it still guides the legislation, I believe it's an old and now thoroughly disproved notion that painful procedures can be done at an early age without pain relief. An infant's inability to express pain does not mean it can't feel it. Did you find these studies on-line? I wouldn't mind having a look at them.

Nowhere in any study have I found the suggestion that since a calf is still young when its tail is removed that its pain is less severe or less traumatic. The tail is an extension of the animals spine! I made the assumption in my own mind, that the younger you are when a trauma occurs the easier it is to get over the incident. But chief concerns among many vets include the notion of phantom pain, where you feel pain in the area of your body that has been removed, and of a consistent, life-spanning, ache in the area that the tail was removed which is believed to affect all cows who undergo docking, despite age.

More research is needed in this area, but these independent scholarly studies are a start. Colorado State University study (scroll down to the tail docking section): http://www.grandin.com/references/surve ... tices.html Journal of Dairy Science study: http://jds.fass.org/cgi/reprint/83/7/1456

I have also read what the American Veterinary Medical Assoc has to say about it: http://www.avma.org/reference/backgroun ... e_bgnd.pdf

 

[preston39]

As a child in the dary barn I was often switched with a wet poopy tail on a
cold mornng . We finally got smart and hung a vertical rope over each cow position in the milk barn with an angled spring (towards rear)attached and when the cow switched her tail it would only go a few inches. Occasionally someone(not me!!!! :? ) would forget to unhook it when the cow was released and she would take one/two steps and stop until it was unhooked. It worked.

Tail bobing should be illegal. That is the type of animal abuse that feeds PETA. Then we ask why they are so popular and supported. :shock:

 

[regolith]

Thanks for those links Holly - there was a lot of interesting stuff there, not just on tail docking.

I thought you'd implied that the pain/trauma was less when younger - my miscomprehension if that wasn't the intention. Interesting that one of the studies was essentially what was done for my thesis but with different results - different species, the references made it clear that the responses were dissimilar to studies on lambs.

Curious about this: http://www.grandin.com/welfare/animals. ... sness.html
I found it hard to read because it's like someone trying to tell you in very simple language how to breathe. Is there seriously anyone reading this who *doesn't* think visually at least a proportion of the time?

 

[Holly]

Curious about this: http://www.grandin.com/welfare/animals. ... sness.html
I found it hard to read because it's like someone trying to tell you in very simple language how to breathe. Is there seriously anyone reading this who *doesn't* think visually at least a proportion of the time?

Animals are unconscious? One time when I was a child I got kicked by a horse, I certainly wish that he was unconscious then! Oh my...I am happy to see that the students at Colorado State are very willing to conduct studies, undergo experiments and document their results, this just seems to be a strange topic to choose.

I know I often think visually, I would assume that all people relate words to images or feelings to images. When I meet someone sometimes I see them like this in my head: :dunce: Just a visual way for me to remember them.

 

[regolith]

When I meet someone sometimes I see them like this in my head: :dunce:

Maybe real people remember faces like this: <round> <slash, straight, 33% from bottom)> <yellow,bright> <dot, black x 2, 66.6% from bottom> ...
That must be confusing.

 

[Holly]

That is the type of animal abuse that feeds PETA. Then we ask why they are so popular and supported. :shock:

I don't believe that farmers who dock their cow's tails are trying to abuse them, or would characterize the behavior as abuse, but you make an excellent point. The average American does not understand the first thing about a dairy farm, they don't understand the type of work that has to be put in, never receiving the compensation that is deserved. I talked about the Willett Farm investigation that took place last year outside of Syracuse, it was shown on ABC World News and Fox News, now THAT is what many people will think about when they ponder farming.
Never acknowledging the fact that we cannot eat without farmers, there is no type of food that does not come from agriculturally grown crops, citizens outside of the farming community look down upon the industry. People see farmers as manual laborers, as lower class, forget the fact that most have extensive degrees and are highly skilled within their fields. There is just this general assumption that no one would want to have a career in agriculture, so if you are one of the people that do, it must mean that you were unable or unwilling to do something else.

 

[preston39]

Holly,
It was not my intention to suggest it was abuse. Although,I think it is very close. They have a tail for a reason...to fight flys. Removing it creates a lack of natural control.
My conclusion was based on the inference/appearance of abuse. Ninety-nine percent of the non-ag population have no idea of the real reason for tail docking. Additionally, the likes of Peta can/will/does spin that type of outward suggestion in the face of the general public. Results, cattlemen receive a black eye and we don't take the time to educate the general public, an area of negligence on the part of the beef check-off dollar use, IMHO.

 

[MF135]

Holly,
It was not my intention to suggest it was abuse. Although,I think it is very close.

Abuse??? Give me a break. It's a practical application in the dairy industry. No, not the 20 hd operation that has "stalls", but the 500 hd milking operation that milks 24/7. If you choose not to take part in the practice, then don't. But don't support legislation against the property rights of others. Both Castration and Dehorning are far more invasive than tail docking yet I don't hear one word against these practices...

 

[hillsdown]

Holly,
It was not my intention to suggest it was abuse. Although,I think it is very close.

Abuse??? Give me a break. It's a practical application in the dairy industry. No, not the 20 hd operation that has "stalls", but the 500 hd milking operation that milks 24/7. If you choose not to take part in the practice, then don't. But don't support legislation against the property rights of others. Both Castration and Dehorning are far more invasive than tail docking yet I don't hear one word against these practices...

:lol2: :lol2: :roll: :?