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Supercharger

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FungusProudKY31

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Frame score and mature weight are influenced by the environment as is BW. A FS 6 animal wit hthe exact genetics in PA or NY is going to be less in SC and a FS 7 in MT is going to be smaller in PA. It is a function of latitude and longitude. The folks in the south or SE USA do not "like" smaller frame cattle, they are what the average feed animal is due to environment. I see a huge difference in heights at weaning, yearling and mature size due to available and quality of pastures and hay, if in a drought and I want to hold a few. The dollars are for the market calves that are nearer weaning and have decent weaning heights. The interest in bull buyers is in the yearling heights and nobody seems too motivated on the mature heights except folks like me who do not want goliaths grazing in the pastures. The most variable is the YH. The WH and MH will be similar or closer.
 

hornedfrogbbq

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Seems to me that smaller frame cattle are more accepted/desirable in the more northern states while the more southern states prefer a little more frame and penalize the smaller frame. Does anyone else agree with that? Just seems to be true based on what I read and see.
I would say the reverse is actually true.
 

hornedfrogbbq

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I was always taught that frame score + 7 x 100 would be the mature weight at a body condition score of 5. Example ((5.5 +7) x100) = 1250. The packers want steers coming out of feed yard weighing 1350 to 1450. How do we produce those with smaller cows?
The packers are fine, generally, with the carcass weighing up to 1050lbs. Above that they usually dock you (as they have problems handling it and the sizing gets too big for the retailers eventually). With a 65-70% yield, your weights above would be a tad light. Most of our feedlots are taking our cattle to 1500-1600lbs to max the pay weight. You can run into more back fat and yield grade reductions that way but our cattle don't. Just an fyi.
 

hornedfrogbbq

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I cant seem to find a mature frame score on Supercharger. Anyone on here know?
Thanks in advance
I think Brian Bell and the Square B folks (that own Supercharger) have more experience with him and his calves than anyone outside of Schaff.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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Frame score is frame score - no matter the age - but yes, "IF" an animal is starved or poor nutrition, they can have a stunted yearling "size" which would change their FS - temporarily.
My FS 6 calves grow up to be FS 6. @gizmom (in Florida) FS 6 calves grow up to be FS 6 mature size. The only difference "location" influences is generally BW. Cows developing a fetus in cold weather, grows a heavier BW calf. Not necessarily a larger FS by weaning age.
Bigger cattle tend do PERFORM better the more North you get, which means producer end up keeping their bigger cattle.
IMHO
 

Ky hills

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jeanne,
wrong was too strong a word but my limited vocabulary didnt come up with another one..
order buyers are on crack sometimes, the fleshy (healthy) are discounted vs the super green ones that dont look like they have ever smelled a mineral much less feed..
A few months ago we sold some steer calves out of mostly heifers. They were what the market supposedly wants. They were either pretty much pure Angus or F1 BWF, weaned for around 90 days vaccinated with the recommended protocols. They had been on a type of mineral that had been recommended by a college professor at a farm field day, and were on a supplemental feed ration which is also one of the requirements of the CPH sales, in that they must be eating from a feed bunk.
The only thing wrong and I knew it would be was that they were deemed small framed and fleshy, even though the sire had a decent mature size to him.
 

Lee VanRoss

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Packers are not interested in your operation. Packers want all the weight per animal that can be handled by a human until his back gives out.
There is more dollars and less cost on a 1600 carcass than a 1200 #. Another Alvarez is more economical than a smaller carcass.
 

Ky hills

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Packers are not interested in your operation. Packers want all the weight per animal that can be handled by a human until his back gives out.
There is more dollars and less cost on a 1600 carcass than a 1200 #. Another Alvarez is more economical than a smaller carcass.
That is true, however most do not sell directly to the packers even though they are ultimately the destination. It has long been promoted within the the breeds that the trend of the day is where its at and thus are the mainstream choices. The resulting calves may or may not end up being what various points along the chain desire. The cow/calf producers have to make a lot of decisions as to what their goals are and most times that is trying to find a balance if they retain females between what they need and what the market that they are selling for want. The cow/calf producers are unfortunately stuck with trying to appease the segments of the industry that are not interested in their operations, hence why the cows needed to produce those big carcass calves are a hard sell to a lot of producers.
 

Josher

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Supercharger is a Bull I’ve been considering as well. Wish they had mature frame scores and mature weights listed for more bulls. One indicator for size would be MW 108 and MH 0.7
 

elkwc

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As a commercial breeder I used to say my ideal frame range was 5.5-6.0. Today I need at least a 6.0 frame in order to try to increase the frame size lost using bulls sired by the hot AI bulls. At the sales around here the framier 6.0-7.0, well muscled stout sound bulls top the sales. And it seems many of the PB breeders don't realize they have went too far in moderation of frame size just like they have with BW's. Many also don't measure frame size and don't realize the actual frame size of their cattle. During the quarantine last spring I needed a bull and posted on an FB site and stated he had to be at least a 6.0 frame. I bought ine the breeder stated was 6.25-6.5. When he got here he lackes a 1/4" being a 5.0. He said he was one of his top 3 frame wise. Fatter than a town dog. I feel many beeeders have raised these toads so long they have no idea what frame size they are raising. I just ask breeders to know what they are raising and don't try to push those toads off on me. And don't try to convince me I need smaller cows. I know what works for us.
 

FungusProudKY31

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Frame score is frame score - no matter the age - but yes, "IF" an animal is starved or poor nutrition, they can have a stunted yearling "size" which would change their FS - temporarily.
My FS 6 calves grow up to be FS 6. @gizmom (in Florida) FS 6 calves grow up to be FS 6 mature size. The only difference "location" influences is generally BW. Cows developing a fetus in cold weather, grows a heavier BW calf. Not necessarily a larger FS by weaning age.
Bigger cattle tend do PERFORM better the more North you get, which means producer end up keeping their bigger cattle.
IMHO
This is not 100%. FS of 6 in one environment is 5 or 4 in others: exact same genetics. Or 7 the more north and west you go. Research has proved it.

"...in order to try to increase the frame size lost using bulls sired by the hot AI bulls" I see the same thing but why deal with the facts? :D But they sure do have nice pictures!
 

Ky hills

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As a commercial breeder I used to say my ideal frame range was 5.5-6.0. Today I need at least a 6.0 frame in order to try to increase the frame size lost using bulls sired by the hot AI bulls. At the sales around here the framier 6.0-7.0, well muscled stout sound bulls top the sales. And it seems many of the PB breeders don't realize they have went too far in moderation of frame size just like they have with BW's. Many also don't measure frame size and don't realize the actual frame size of their cattle. During the quarantine last spring I needed a bull and posted on an FB site and stated he had to be at least a 6.0 frame. I bought ine the breeder stated was 6.25-6.5. When he got here he lackes a 1/4" being a 5.0. He said he was one of his top 3 frame wise. Fatter than a town dog. I feel many beeeders have raised these toads so long they have no idea what frame size they are raising. I just ask breeders to know what they are raising and don't try to push those toads off on me. And don't try to convince me I need smaller cows. I know what works for us.
Excellent points. Not many breeders that I know of record frame scores. Years ago after the frame race which went too far, the buzz word was moderate framed. That has went its course too, as moderate on top of moderate for several generations have bred them down too far. The markets here are not kind at all to calves that don't have adequate frame. I've long thought that there was a disconnect between segments of the industry. The trends of heavy reliance on AI breeding to mostly a handful of heavily promoted bulls of the month, have created a plethora of issues for cow/calf producers, one of which is this continued trend of moderation which is more akin to continual frame reduction. Its a lot easier to reduce frame than to add it. I think most breeders place an emphasis on weaning weights and possibly yearling weights too. The trend of moderate framed easy fleshing cattle sounds great especially from the cow/calf producer perspective but then the flip side of marketing those calves is that they appear to be the short fleshy calves that get discounted. I would prefer to run smaller cows, but that doesn't work real well. My goals are to try and strike a balance between growth of calves and functionality of females in the event we retain heifers. I like to use bulls are 6 frame 7 is even better, but very hard to find. I've had to settle on several bulls in the 5-51/2 range and they just don't result in the kind of calves that I need when selling.
 

elkwc

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What I see with frame size is they will push a calf hard and he will have a 6.0 or better frame score. When he is mature he will be around a 5.0. They will list his yearling frame score but bot his mature frame score. I have seen this several times.
I have a 5 y/o bull now that was 6.5as a yearling, Then they used him as a yearling and didn't feed him much after pulling him off the cows. As a 2 when I bought him he was a frame score 5.4. Today he is a 6.0. So frame score is influenced by how they are developed. Many of the 5.0 frame AI sires had bigger yearling frame scores. So why I pay little attention to yearling frame scores.
The smaller frame scored cattle are docked heavily in this area. So unless you are feeding your cattle out it pays to raise what sells best.
 

W.B.

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I don’t measure my bulls everyday to know what their actual mature frame actually is. Any time I sell something a scale is used to measure to determine value. I don’t want cows that weigh over 1450 mature as maintenance costs will kill you in this part of the world.
 

76 Bar

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Frame score is at best a subject evaluation due to the vagaries of accurately capturing the data and little if any input on how animals were/are managed. note also the adjustments made for various & sundry reasons.
https://www.angus.org/Performance/AHIR/PerfFrameScore.aspx
Note the relatively small difference of hip height between frame score height 5 & 6 & even 7 for that matter.
 

elkwc

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There is basically 2" between frame sizes. If you think 4" isn't much get on a 15 h horse and a 16h horse. A big difference. There is a big difference standing next to them. I don't measure frame sizes daily but do yearly on all our bulls. This enables me to better judge frame sizes. The feeder buyers in this area are good at it and dock everything under a 6.0
 

hornedfrogbbq

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We ask for actual measurements before we buy...and even then folks measure differently. It at least gives us an idea. We find that is much better than asking someone a frame score...too many think they are the wrong size.
 

simme

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I guess many here have taken measurements for frame score, but there are probably many who have not. It is certainly not as easy as a weight measurement. The animal needs to be somewhat restrained on a solid surface, not dirt, mud or gravel. Head needs to be up, not down and not too far up. Back needs to be somewhat level. Legs and feet not all sprawled out. Now, how to get the measurement? Since cows do not have a squared off body side to side, you need to measure at the highest point which is near the center of the back (at the proper point front to back). If you drop your tape down along the side of the animal, you have to try to read the tape vertically to that point at the center of the back. And need to keep your tape somewhat plumb vertically. You can buy an L shaped telescoping device with inches marked on it, with an integral leveling bubble. Just lower the horizontal piece onto the animals back and quickly read it BEFORE the animal drops their back an inch or so when metal piece touches their back. As they shift their back up or down, frame score measurement reading shifts up and down a half frame score or so. Point is that getting the measurement is somewhat arbitrary. Folks that see a lot of cattle weighed get to the point that they can "weigh" with their eyes pretty good. And some may be better at "visual" frame scoring than others. After a measurement, you will see frame scores like 5.8. I just don't think they are that accurate to get to a tenth of a frame score. A half a frame score is perhaps a more reasonable accuracy.
 

Katpau

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I had some SAF Focus of ER offspring and used two sons about 10+ years ago. Most of the calves I will refer to were sired by those sons, but like the few direct offspring I had, those calves really grew in both height and weight, It seemed like they added inches at weaning to even the calves out of my smallest cows. Semen is still available for just $10 a straw from Sydenstricker Genetics. Those calves also had some of the best dispositions I've ever encountered in the Angus breed. The cows weren't pretty, but good producers and easy to work with. His numbers aren't good by today's standards, but I have considered using him again. Most of my AI is done with the intention of making replacement females, so I have not used him again since females tended to be tall and somewhat narrow, but the calves were the kind most buyers like. SAF Focus was probably best know as the sire of Mytty in Focus.

I never really like the looks of many of the females. I think they would have been very impressive if they had been supplemented with grain, but I expect my cows to survive on grass alone except in winter. They weren't really thin, but tall and lanky. Most raised excellent calves. As a matter of fact I can remember at least four of those cows that became Pathfinders in my herd. A Pathfinder is a cow that produces 3 or more calves that wean at 105% or more of the herd average. They must have also produced their first calf by two years of age and continue to breed back within 365 days. I have one that will be 11 this year and is expecting her 10th calf in February. She has a weaning ratio of 112%. I have regretted selling her sire for years. When my two Focus sons were just 5, one tested as positive recessive for NH, a nasty defect. I decided to ship him and when I went to load him up the other Focus bull also jumped in the trailer. I suddenly decided it might be fun to get a new young bull in spring and to have one less mouth to feed through the winter. I have never had one since give me daughters that produced like that.
 

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