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Suggestions? Angus bulls that suit the North country

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FungusProudKY31

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"Larger frames work great in the South/southeast. They don't work as well in the north. I'd be a lot more concerned with fleshing and EN value in a bull for a northern herd than frame."
Research is totally against you on this incorrect statement. Just the opposite.
 

Steve123

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Dameron Line Drive was the 1988 NWSS Champion Angus Bull. He weighted over 2500 lbs and was a frame score 10+. Is this what you are looking for?
 

Ky hills

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Don’t know anything about the needs of cattle for the north, but from what I have seen Canada has some pretty big frame high volumed cattle. Used some Canadian Charolais bulls via AI, and thus saw bulls of several breeds in the catalogs. I would venture to say smaller frame cattle are better suited for warmer climates, but it doesn’t really matter because our market docks them and it’s a tough balancing act to have it both ways in terms of practical cows and then in turn have calves that are well received when taken to market.
 
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Josher

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Dameron Line Drive was the 1988 NWSS Champion Angus Bull. He weighted over 2500 lbs and was a frame score 10+. Is this what you are looking for?
Frame score of 10 + would be too much for me. Wouldn’t have problem with a 2500 lb bull though.
And as far as the other comments on frame size. You don’t have to look far into nature to see that animals follow same trend. The northern colder climate supports having a bigger body to make it through tough conditions. All kinds of deer just are bigger bodied up here in Sk, Canada vs Texas. Can be 100 lb difference in whitetails. I’m not saying there is no limit. I don’t care where u live a 2000 lb cow is not gonna be making u much money. I cull my bigger cows if they are not raising a big enough calf to justify. And the small ones might raise a big calf one year then the next year they come up open, so they too get shipped. The cows I’m left with are 1300-1500. The environment dictates what size of cow I run.
 

Jafruech

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"Larger frames work great in the South/southeast. They don't work as well in the north. I'd be a lot more concerned with fleshing and EN value in a bull for a northern herd than frame."
Research is totally against you on this incorrect statement. Just the opposite.

Let me clarify the direction I was going with that. Specifically talking about Hereford/Angus, etc. In cold, arid environments, selecting for a moderate framed, easy fleshing cow with a high $EN value is going to be more profitable than a large framed one. She is going to gain back faster after calving, require less maintenance and you can stock 3 of them for a every 2 of the larger framed. I've seen plenty of Angus and Hereford with "great genetics" and large frames completely fall apart on the non existent grass out here. Meanwhile my cows get fat just looking at sandy frozen soil. Select for your environment, not for bragging rights...that was my point
 

Silver

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In my opinion, I think you need to take another look at why you don't like smaller framed Angus for that environment. Larger frames work great in the South/southeast. They don't work as well in the north. I'd be a lot more concerned with fleshing and EN value in a bull for a northern herd than frame.

If your only goal is a measuring contest with family...by all means...keep going. If your goal is to make money, I'd be more concerned with your profit margin per acre..not per calf. You can wean a hell of a calf....but if I can run 3 cows for the same inputs as 2 of yours...and mine gain and finish well with excellent marbling and grade on crappy (or non existent this year) grass. I have one cow I swear would get fat by osmosis just looking at grass...to each his own.

I watched a local sale yesterday that was broadcast online. An outfit sold their steer calves. He sold 24% more steers than I did this year. He averaged 509 lbs straight through. His total weight of steers sold was 93% of the total pounds of my group, and his gross sales receipt was 10% less. So he ran 24% more cows than I did for 10% less gross. I think that leaves me some room to absorb that extra half a bale of hay per cow my cows may possibly have eaten last winter.
 
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kcarr716

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Giving 4404 (Basin Rainmaker) a try this year. Haven't seen in person, but have been told from one that has seen him at stud (not a semen rep), that he was one that actually had some size and stood out at Genex, good structured. Nothing extreme as far as epd's. Dam/Granddam look pretty good, too. SS Niagara as a backup.

I have used some 4404 in the past along with other rainmaker bulls, had a couple sons of his that sold in our sale a couple years ago that I may have pictures and videos of. I didnt keep any daughters out of him but have several out of another p175 son
 

Stickney94

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I watched a local sale yesterday that was broadcast online. An outfit sold their steer calves. He sold 24% more steers than I did this year. He averaged 509 lbs straight through. His total weight of steers sold was 93% of the total pounds of my group, and his gross sales receipt was 10% less. So he ran 24% more cows than I did for 10% less gross. I think that leaves me some room to absorb that extra half a bale of hay per cow my cows may possibly have eaten last winter.
Thanks Silver. I don't sell feeder calves so I have no experience. But the mathematical concept floated seems great on paper (more small cows-more calves-more pounds) but in practice I was curious how effective it was. I'm glad you had real data to provide for context.

I also question the concept of the 1,100 lb beef cow. I have a scale and the only cow near 1,100 lbs is a 6 year old jersey that was my daughters clover bud 4H calf. That cow is nothing but bones/leather/bag and she is 1,100. Her twin sister looks the same but still weighs 1,250. If one of my beef cows weighs 1,100 they are very ill. And my cows are NOT large by any stretch (I live in cattle country, lots of cows around).
 

Silver

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Thanks Silver. I don't sell feeder calves so I have no experience. But the mathematical concept floated seems great on paper (more small cows-more calves-more pounds) but in practice I was curious how effective it was. I'm glad you had real data to provide for context.

I also question the concept of the 1,100 lb beef cow. I have a scale and the only cow near 1,100 lbs is a 6 year old jersey that was my daughters clover bud 4H calf. That cow is nothing but bones/leather/bag and she is 1,100. Her twin sister looks the same but still weighs 1,250. If one of my beef cows weighs 1,100 they are very ill. And my cows are NOT large by any stretch (I live in cattle country, lots of cows around).
I think a lot of peoples cattle are bigger than they think they are.
Where do you live? It's not on your info.
 

76 Bar

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Agree with Silver. Unless producers are weighing their cows for performance reasons or paying attention to sale weights 1100 lb cows are are not the norm. Same goes for birth weights. Unless weighed within 24 hrs of birth via an accurate scale guesstimates tapes & bathroom scales are a joke.
 

Stickney94

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I think a lot of peoples cattle are bigger than they think they are.
Where do you live? It's not on your info.
SW MN -- but I grew up in SD and I travel there frequently.

The first cows I owned were the last bits of my dad's PB angus herd -- 1999 models. They were 1980s/1990s genetics and they were even larger than my cows now (sold as culls in the 1,600 lb+ range). I've reduced my cow herd size to mostly 1300-1400 lb in working clothes.
 

Silver

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SW MN -- but I grew up in SD and I travel there frequently.

The first cows I owned were the last bits of my dad's PB angus herd -- 1999 models. They were 1980s/1990s genetics and they were even larger than my cows now (sold as culls in the 1,600 lb+ range). I've reduced my cow herd size to mostly 1300-1400 lb in working clothes.
Thanks. Ya there are some big ole Angus cows out there for sure. I read somewhere that Black Angus are either the biggest or second biggest cows in the US these days.
I find cow size can creep up in a hurry if I don't pay attention. Other folks say the opposite. I wonder if it's a cold climate thing.
 

76 Bar

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Cobble Pond New Yorker 1986 NWSS Champion Angus Bull
https://msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical/cobblepond_newyorker.jpg
Dameron Line Drive 1988 NWSS Champion Angus Bull
https://msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical/dameron_linedrive.jpg
IMO this article by Dr Bob Hough written in 2011 is as relevant today as it was nearly a decade ago.
http://www.noahsangusranch.com/Docs/Sinclair11SpringNews_Houghindd.pdf
Last but not least:
https://cdn-ext.agnet.tamu.edu/wp-c...attle-x-frame-score-frame-size-and-weight.pdf
I wonder if it's a cold climate thing.
Might come into play but its a good guess the culprit is likely breed associations and their respective breeders attempting to remake history. (n)
 

Stickney94

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Jafruech

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Thanks Silver. I don't sell feeder calves so I have no experience. But the mathematical concept floated seems great on paper (more small cows-more calves-more pounds) but in practice I was curious how effective it was. I'm glad you had real data to provide for context.

I also question the concept of the 1,100 lb beef cow. I have a scale and the only cow near 1,100 lbs is a 6 year old jersey that was my daughters clover bud 4H calf. That cow is nothing but bones/leather/bag and she is 1,100. Her twin sister looks the same but still weighs 1,250. If one of my beef cows weighs 1,100 they are very ill. And my cows are NOT large by any stretch (I live in cattle country, lots of cows around).

Well here is a pic of a 5 year old cow that's 1150lbs along with her 5 mo old calf...

Silver, the problem is it's not as simple as your gross profits on sale day (my calves average closer to 580 usually when I sell so quite a bit higher than the example given). You have to consider all of your inputs from feed, mineral, to time. I would agree it's not all about size. Two 1400 lb beef cows of the same breed can have very different maintenance/ input costs. That's where fleshing and feed efficiency come in. Genetics, and understanding their role can make or break things these days. My cows get fat staring at dead 3 awns.

I got 5.5 inches of rain this year at home and I've been at 15 below already this winter. The lease ground pictured is 20 miles north of me and got more rain but still dry for them. Theres about 100 acres of it that is sub irrigated and that is what they are standing on in the picture. The rest of the pasture is pretty rough even there. Easy fleshing is among the top traits I sort for. A lot of guys here with similar land and MUCH lower stocking rates had to start feeding hay in July due to the drought. I just started this week. 5 months of extra hay purchase plus all the extra inputs... there's no way those guys are even close to having better profit margins. I get good money for my calves, sleep all night in calving season and can't remember the last cow I had to doctor...I'm culling a couple heifers this year that weaned nice calves on the sole basis that they didn't bounce back fast enough after their first calf and aren't as easy fleshing.

Most large framed Angus are not well suited for my specific Arid northern environment for the sole fact of feed efficiency/fleshing. The ability to gain and store fat is what makes animals thrive and grow in the cold. Most large framed cattle fall apart On native pasture here and can't maintain and gain without extra supplementation. My bulls get nothing but pasture and some hay in the winter (more on drought years like this). If I'm feeding really low quality hay or dead pasture I'll supplement a 21% tub and they make those last a long time...that's it other than water. We ran a lot of stockers growing up and some larger framed crosses...my dad made the comment that he can't believe how easy it is now with these cows and the right genetics with cows suited to their environment.

To each their own...
 

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