steer or bull

[dun]

I don't think zero is the average for any of the breeds, may have been when they firsted calculating them, but not anymore.
Hereford is around +3.8 for BW, Red Angus +0.9.
Weaning weight is a measure of bulls offsprings growth, milk is a measurment of his daughters contribution to the weaning weight. I didn't say that very well, but hopefully you get the idea.

dun

So is Zero the average of the Breed? And why do they have weaning weight epd and milk epd's if both measure the weight of the calf at weaning time?

J+

 

[J+]

I know I kind of asked this but, what is Zero then? And do you get these numbers from the calf weights or the average of the parents?

J+

 

[dun]

A bulls WW Epd is based on his offsrpings, his siblings, his parents, their sibs, offspring and parents, etc., etc.
It's a complex mathematical formula that's been worked out by some weanies at the unversities.
To me the calculation method is all HPFM.
To simplify things, if the particular animal doesn;t have EPDs already calculated, a rough guesstimate is to add the parents and divide by 2. It's not 100% accurate, but it's at least fairly close.
Each of the breed registries will have somewhere on their site the actual breed averages for all traits.

dun

I know I kind of asked this but, what is Zero then? And do you get these numbers from the calf weights or the average of the parents?

J+

 

[Anonymous]

I know I kind of asked this but, what is Zero then? And do you get these numbers from the calf weights or the average of the parents?

J+

it's me, txag....didn't log in

originally, when epd's were established a zero was the breed average. the breed averages have shifted over time so zero is no longer the breed average for that trait. epd's will not give you an actual number like 76 lbs for bw. basically they are just a comparison. what they do tell you as i explained earlier is that a bull with a +8 epd for bw will have calves that are 7 lbs heavier than a bull with a +1 epd for bw. it does not tell you what the calves will actually weigh. it takes some time and studying to know what epd's are good for each breed. i couldn't tell you what a low bw epd or a high ww or yw epd is in the angus breed without doing a little looking and research, but i can look at a polled hereford's epd's & know what is good (or what i consider good).

like dun said, when a calf is born & doesn't have any offspring yet, the epd is the average of the parents' epd's. it will also have no accuracy & will have something like PE which is pedigree estimate meaning the epd is only based on the pedigree and not the animal's individual performance.

hope this helps some more.

 

[Jake]

You know the way it sounds I should may be keep him and sell the bull I just got last fall? My bull's EPDs and blood line are not to bad I don't think, what you all think?

my bull
http://www.angus.org/common/epd_ped_det ... d=14297882

NO the father is a much better animal because he doesnt have the mother of your little calf now. The cows EPDs are well below average but so they drag down the calf's the calf will still be fine but I'd keep your bull.

 

[la4angus]

You know the way it sounds I should may be keep him and sell the bull I just got last fall? My bull's EPDs and blood line are not to bad I don't think, what you all think?

my bull
http://www.angus.org/common/epd_ped_det ... d=14297882

NO the father is a much better animal because he doesnt have the mother of your little calf now. The cows EPDs are well below average but so they drag down the calf's the calf will still be fine but I'd keep your bull.

IMO Your 2 yr. old bull will not improve the milk ability of his daughters.
If you have high milking cows he will probaly help to bring their daughters production down. Sometimes that is what you need if a cow is milking to much for one calf to handle.

 

[ollie]

I don't want to be overly critical but I think this is exactly what I don't like about epd's . This man is going to use the bull you tell him to just because you like or dislike the epd's . I don't think there is a man alive that can make a valuable recomendation on which bull to keep without ever seeing more than the papers.Just my lonely opinion.

 

[txag]

I don't want to be overly critical but I think this is exactly what I don't like about epd's . This man is going to use the bull you tell him to just because you like or dislike the epd's . I don't think there is a man alive that can make a valuable recomendation on which bull to keep without ever seeing more than the papers.Just my lonely opinion.

you make a good point. i am a fan of epd's but will be the first to say that they are only a tool. any purchasing or breeding decisions should not be based solely on epd's. so many factors should be used......performance data, physical characteristics, soundness, pedigree, epd's and any other information you have to evaluate.

 

[certherfbeef]

We just sold 2 yearling bulls at the sale barn and 2 bottle baby calves. The bulls we ended up not getting sold for breeding stock and they were tearing stuff up (bulls are hard on everything). Now granted, these are herefords so the price sucks anyhow, but we only got 69 cents. The 2 bottle babies- we got 1.00 and 96 cents. Bull and heifer respectivley. Bottom line- we didn't break even on the yearlings but made a $ on the babies.

 

[Campground Cattle]

I don't want to be overly critical but I think this is exactly what I don't like about epd's . This man is going to use the bull you tell him to just because you like or dislike the epd's . I don't think there is a man alive that can make a valuable recomendation on which bull to keep without ever seeing more than the papers.Just my lonely opinion.

This is the exact reason I had problems with the AHA and their TPR program. Epds don't mean a whole lot to me, I want to know the bloodlines. I have seen some great epds on some herefords bloodlines that are total BS.

 

[certherfbeef]

Epd's are only as honest as the people recording them. Round here the Felton's cattle seem to be the thing right now. Trend is everyone wants a 1.2 or a neg something on birth weight. I do not play the game and mess w/ weights till I get what they want. As a result, sold some good reg bulls to comercial breeders last year w/ 92 and 98 lb act BW. To me, to keep a heifer as a replacement w/ a neg 1.6 BW epd is not pratical either. All I see is calving problems. But the reason my bulls had to go to the sale barn yesterday was because their BW epd's were 5.7.

 

[Campground Cattle]

Epd's are only as honest as the people recording them. Round here the Felton's cattle seem to be the thing right now. Trend is everyone wants a 1.2 or a neg something on birth weight. I do not play the game and mess w/ weights till I get what they want. As a result, sold some good reg bulls to comercial breeders last year w/ 92 and 98 lb act BW. To me, to keep a heifer as a replacement w/ a neg 1.6 BW epd is not pratical either. All I see is calving problems. But the reason my bulls had to go to the sale barn yesterday was because their BW epd's were 5.7.

I know everyone wants Feltons won't hold a candle to Braxton Giant. Braxton is an old line out of New Zealand just don't have the money behind them. I only know of one other breeder in Texas that running them. Calves get here the size of a housecat and grow like rabbits. Look up Braxton Giant 1 on the AHA these are real EPDS..

 

[txag]

Epd's are only as honest as the people recording them. Round here the Felton's cattle seem to be the thing right now. Trend is everyone wants a 1.2 or a neg something on birth weight. I do not play the game and mess w/ weights till I get what they want. As a result, sold some good reg bulls to comercial breeders last year w/ 92 and 98 lb act BW. To me, to keep a heifer as a replacement w/ a neg 1.6 BW epd is not pratical either. All I see is calving problems. But the reason my bulls had to go to the sale barn yesterday was because their BW epd's were 5.7.

at what age do you wean your bull calves? on your website two of your bulls for sale have weaning weights of 517 & 578 & then have adj 205 weights of 962 & 954.

 

[certherfbeef]

Last year the calves were weaned at 4 months. We ran out of pasture early and I wanted to bump the cows back a little to calve early March.

 

[dun]

Some big heifers still are hard calvers, some smaller heifers aren't. I don't know what the heretibility of pelvic size is, but there are bulls that throw tiny calves that have daughters that are easy calvers with huge pelvic, and vice versa. Discarding a heifer because she has minus BW is just as wrong (poor chice of words but that's the best I can do) as selecting a bull for extremely high YW and keeping his daughters and hoping for moderate framed cows.
There are so many outliers in the diverse and antagonistic traits, the entire package needs to be looked at. Just as a great set of EPDs with poor feet and legs is bad, great structure with terrible EPDs is just as bad.
Visual appraisal, EPDs, pedigree, they're all tools to help select the right heifer or bull. The operative word is "help".

dun

Epd's are only as honest as the people recording them. Round here the Felton's cattle seem to be the thing right now. Trend is everyone wants a 1.2 or a neg something on birth weight. I do not play the game and mess w/ weights till I get what they want. As a result, sold some good reg bulls to comercial breeders last year w/ 92 and 98 lb act BW. To me, to keep a heifer as a replacement w/ a neg 1.6 BW epd is not pratical either. All I see is calving problems. But the reason my bulls had to go to the sale barn yesterday was because their BW epd's were 5.7.

 

[txag]

Some big heifers still are hard calvers, some smaller heifers aren't. I don't know what the heretibility of pelvic size is, but there are bulls that throw tiny calves that have daughters that are easy calvers with huge pelvic, and vice versa. Discarding a heifer because she has minus BW is just as wrong (poor chice of words but that's the best I can do) as selecting a bull for extremely high YW and keeping his daughters and hoping for moderate framed cows.
There are so many outliers in the diverse and antagonistic traits, the entire package needs to be looked at. Just as a great set of EPDs with poor feet and legs is bad, great structure with terrible EPDs is just as bad.
Visual appraisal, EPDs, pedigree, they're all tools to help select the right heifer or bull. The operative word is "help".

dun

Epd's are only as honest as the people recording them. Round here the Felton's cattle seem to be the thing right now. Trend is everyone wants a 1.2 or a neg something on birth weight. I do not play the game and mess w/ weights till I get what they want. As a result, sold some good reg bulls to comercial breeders last year w/ 92 and 98 lb act BW. To me, to keep a heifer as a replacement w/ a neg 1.6 BW epd is not pratical either. All I see is calving problems. But the reason my bulls had to go to the sale barn yesterday was because their BW epd's were 5.7.

agree except you want a neg BW epd. for BW, lower #s are better. for CE, higher is better.

 

[txag]

Last year the calves were weaned at 4 months. We ran out of pasture early and I wanted to bump the cows back a little to calve early March.

i guess i asked because the third bull only had a 570 205-day adj weight. the other two seem a little high.

 

[dun]

I used the -1.6 from his example. When retaining heifers the really important factor is the sires maternal calving ease. BW isn't all of the equation either. frinstance, I'm looking at 2 ABS Polled Hereford bulls, one has a BW +1.5 but calving ease direct of +6.8 and his maternal calving ease is +6.3, the other has a BW of +0.4, calving ease of +3.6 and maternal calving ease of +2.6. With everything else equal the former would be my choice. The plus +1.5 for scrotal sure doesn't hurt either. We'll be having at least 3 calves by him next year and several by one of his sons. We already have a couple of steers by the son and one heifer that is a high candidate for retention.

dun

Some big heifers still are hard calvers, some smaller heifers aren't. I don't know what the heretibility of pelvic size is, but there are bulls that throw tiny calves that have daughters that are easy calvers with huge pelvic, and vice versa. Discarding a heifer because she has minus BW is just as wrong (poor chice of words but that's the best I can do) as selecting a bull for extremely high YW and keeping his daughters and hoping for moderate framed cows.
There are so many outliers in the diverse and antagonistic traits, the entire package needs to be looked at. Just as a great set of EPDs with poor feet and legs is bad, great structure with terrible EPDs is just as bad.
Visual appraisal, EPDs, pedigree, they're all tools to help select the right heifer or bull. The operative word is "help".

dun

Epd's are only as honest as the people recording them. Round here the Felton's cattle seem to be the thing right now. Trend is everyone wants a 1.2 or a neg something on birth weight. I do not play the game and mess w/ weights till I get what they want. As a result, sold some good reg bulls to comercial breeders last year w/ 92 and 98 lb act BW. To me, to keep a heifer as a replacement w/ a neg 1.6 BW epd is not pratical either. All I see is calving problems. But the reason my bulls had to go to the sale barn yesterday was because their BW epd's were 5.7.

agree except you want a neg BW epd. for BW, lower #s are better. for CE, higher is better.

 

[certherfbeef]

Dun, would thoes ABS bulls you are talking about be Killarney and 767G?

 

[dun]

Nope, Feltons 774 and Master Duty, the son is KCF Bennett H119. We also have a daughter of KCF Bennett E153 a son for Feltons 517. Of the H119 and E153 calves I prefer the E153, more eye pigment. The H119 calves, other then pigmentation I can't tell that much about yet since they're only 2 months old.

dun

Dun, would thoes ABS bulls you are talking about be Killarney and 767G?