SPB's, white rule, Paint Parents, etc.

[ArrowHBrand]

Solid Paint Breds, or Breeding Stock, should be allowed to show against regular registered Paint horses. If those who do not want SPB's and Paints to show against each other in the same classes than maybe the APHA shouldn't allow SPB's to be registered with their organization. SPB's should start their own stallion registry and organize their own association. In human terms this would be racial segregation. In essence SPB's are being devalued making them harder to sell and increasing the number of "unwanted" horses.
However, I do applaude the new rule that atleast one parent has to be a Paint horse in order to register with the APHA. This helps to keep the APHA from being a dumping ground for horses that don't meet other breeds' standards usually on how much white they may have.
Speaking of white, I think the AQHA is making a mistake in relation to their new white rule. Over time horses as a breed and with human influence, will develop and change compared to when the association first started. However, color isn't necessarily one of them. This is the same as the SPB's with Paints, except in reverse. It's nice that the AQHA is keeping them on level footing with other QH's, but as judges and competitors go they will probably be descriminated against. Maybe overly white Quarters and solid Paints could get together and start a Stock Horse Association or something to please everyone.
As a breeder, owner, and trainer of Paints and Quarters I just want to keep the emotional and monetary value on all of the hroses I own. Am I disappointed when we have an SPB foal? About 1% is diappointed, but the other 99% thinks the conformation, muscling, and attitude is worth more than the color, but sometimes that isn't the case. The two best cattle horses we've had so far was a dam and daugher, both SPB's. I know their useful value, but books are judged by their cover.

 

[chippie]

As an owner of both regular papered APHA and Solid bred APHA horses I do not believe that they should be allowed to be shown in the same class.

The APHA offers classes for the solid colored horses and is requiring that more classes be offered at shows.

As for the AQHA Association registering horses with excessive white, I strongly doubt that the American Quarter Horse as we know it will become a pinto or paint colored breed.

There are many contests (NCHA, NRHA, NSBA, SHOT, etc...) that a solid colored Paint can participate in and receive recognition. With PAC contests it is possible to get points on a solid bred horse.

PS. We show our horses too.

Did you do the recent APHA member survey? I did.

 

[Penridergirl]

Please remember that the APHA became a breed association BECAUSE the AQHA dumped their excessive white horses! Of course, there are the tobiano's, too.

I also ride APHA horses. I have two that are "regular" registry. One is a loud Tobiano that is almost straight AQHA bloodlines; the other is a sabino, with a tobiano line. The other two are AQHA/APHA double registered.

This double registry is a fine thing for those who are selling for big dollars; but I think it's a crock. Choose one or the other breed association and stay with it. The double registering of horses is just to make a few more bucks on a horse. Pretty soon we are going to consistantly have some very LOUD overos in the AQHA and some very minimal white in the APHA. Why not just merge the two breed associations and be done with it?

As for the showing/performance end of the APHA being divided into solids and colors.............If it's not broke don't fix it!!!! Why complain about something that really isn't a problem? Solid horses still earn the same points, awards, titles, etc. as the color....just in a different division. Furthermore, I really don't believe the horses are too concerned about "racial discrimination" the way the human race is.

 

[Alan]

The AQHA and the APHA will never let each other have complete control. AQHA recently allowed excessive white to be reg AQHA as long as you could show back in the pedigree that one of the parents was a AQHA cropout. Once the AQHA did that the APHA quit allowing cropout AQHA to be APHA. With all the politics involved breeding stock paints will be lower $ animals.... it's the nature of the beast.

Here is two of my wife's and mine horses, both look shaggy because of winter pictures, one is my $400 breeding stock gelding. I bought him as a weanling he is 3 in the pic and now is 5. The other is my wifes and grandkids riding horse, she is 5 in the pic and now is 7. Both started out life as APHA, but now they are both APHA/AQHA. The mare does not look like a QH and the gelding does not look like a Paint.... it's the way of the world.

Alan

 

[ArrowHBrand]

Please remember that the APHA became a breed association BECAUSE the AQHA dumped their excessive white horses! Of course, there are the tobiano's, too.

I also ride APHA horses. I have two that are "regular" registry. One is a loud Tobiano that is almost straight AQHA bloodlines; the other is a sabino, with a tobiano line. The other two are AQHA/APHA double registered.

This double registry is a fine thing for those who are selling for big dollars; but I think it's a crock. Choose one or the other breed association and stay with it. The double registering of horses is just to make a few more bucks on a horse. Pretty soon we are going to consistantly have some very LOUD overos in the AQHA and some very minimal white in the APHA. Why not just merge the two breed associations and be done with it?

As for the showing/performance end of the APHA being divided into solids and colors.............If it's not broke don't fix it!!!! Why complain about something that really isn't a problem? Solid horses still earn the same points, awards, titles, etc. as the color....just in a different division. Furthermore, I really don't believe the horses are too concerned about "racial discrimination" the way the human race is.

I think double registry is a crock too and I wasn't implying that horses are worried about "racial discrimination". I was meaning that by separating reg. Paints from SPB's is hurting the breed. This is all my opinion. If they are able to be registered as Paints, let them all show as Paints and not lable them as something different.

 

[Penridergirl]

Arrow H Brand~

After thinking about what I wrote and re-reading your posts...I understand where you are coming from on the labeling of "Paint" that are breeding stock as something else. It does seem kind of silly to have a seperate class when the horses all earn the same points. You are absolutely right that a paint is a paint is a paint.

 

[ArrowHBrand]

I think it is hypocritical for the APHA to register a horse as a Paint and then not let it show in Paint sanctioned shows. Breeds evolve and so does the breed standard, if an SPB isn't what the APHA thinks is a Paint, than don't let them be registered. I think another equine association should be started for SPB's and QH cropouts.

 

[Alan]

You are absolutely right that a paint is a paint is a paint.

Not according to any judge with the APHA that I have ever seen. I will admit I haven't been to many APHA shows in a few years, but they were just getting classes for breeding stock fillies and mares, no such luck for breeding stock geldings and studs. Like I stated before, it's the way of the world, a paint is not a paint according to the show people who "want" to improve the breed :roll: . A breeding stock paint and a cropout will always be the cheaper horse in the pen. But a breeding stock paint and a crop out QH will always be the red headed step child until the APHA and the AQHA can start working together... yea that will happen :roll: .

Alan

 

[ArrowHBrand]

I agree Alan. If you have one or two Paint parents and the foal is mostly solild, then why isn't it a Paint? Before the APHA changed their parent rule, a QH with too much white could be registered as a Paint. That didn't make sense and they changed that rule. Not being able to show a registered Paint at sanctioned shows doesn't make sense to me. If it's registered with the APHA than why can't it show with other horses registered with the APHA. Oh yeah not enough white. So I can only conclude that the APHA is promoting breeding for coat color and not for genetics. How wrong is that?

 

[spinandslide]

Id like to comment, as we breed paints.

The American Paint horse is a breed of horse with bloodline and color requirements..this is not unheard of within the horse world. Clydesdales are the same, as are many warmbloods from Europe.

The DIFFERENCE is that APHA allows the uncolored stock to still be registered, the other organizations I mentioned will DENY registration to any animal not meeting color requirements, no matter how well bred the animal is.

The breeding Stock paint has more opputunities today then it ever did..they have added more Breeding Stock classes to the APHA world show, many regional clubs offer reduced or even FREE BS classes..the Gelding Plus, PAC, and Incentives to apha registered horses in non APHA approved events(colored or solid)..Kix Brook's wife won the NCHA incentive on her breeding stock cutter last year..

There ARE oppurtunities for solid paints, IMO, their owners need to inform themselves and quit complaining.

If your regional club does not offer BS classes, contact them, most are more then happy to hear and act on your suggestions.

I do not want to see solids and colored's shown together. The trend in many classes is to have as minimaly colored horse as possible, with no color requirements, the color that has identified a paint horse will virtualy dissapear..similar to what happened with the Appalossas with their organization allowed solids to be shown with spotted.

Breeders can protect themselves by breeding QUALITY animals, so even if it does come out solid, the marketability is still there and LIMITING what they breed.

My mare is in foal to a minimal overo with over $70,000 NRHA earnings, was on the USET, is a multi world and reserve world champion and sired a WC at this year's World Show..I know this foal, even if it comes out PURPLE will have the genetics for greatness.

JMO
Sarah

 

[ArrowHBrand]

I agree with most of what you are saying Spinandslide. My wife and I also breed Paints, but I think maybe you are missing my gripe. If the APHA is going to allow SPB's to be registered than let them show as a Paint. If being a horse with minimal white and mostly color isn't what the APHA is looking for in the breed dynamic, than don't let them be registered with the APHA. I am complaining, but I am also educated on this topic. The Appy coat color is unique to it's breed and allowing solid horses to be registered and shown has had some effect, good or bad is any person's opinion. If the APHA doesn't want to go down that road too, don't allow SPB's to be registered then. I agree too that quality responsible breeding is what needs to happen. When people are breeding only for color and get a solid, they are creating problems for the horse industry as a whole causing a ripple effect. We had a SPB stud colt this year that is now shedding out to be a deep chestnut and has a blaze and three stockings. He has awesome genetics, great conformation, and muscles on muscles. but we will geld him and possibly keep him to work cattle. His dam and two sisters have been our best cattle horses. Something has to change.

 

[spinandslide]

Arrow, personaly, as I said, I feel the SPB has more oppurtunities NOW then they ever had..is it disheartening when you get a solid and were hoping for color? Heck yeah..while one shouldnt breed soley for color, lets face it, our breed DOES have color requirements, so we try to increase our odds of that, along with maintaining the whole package.

Appalossa shows have classes FULL of solid horses, the appalossa has lost its identity..granted, Ive heard the organization was having issues before they passed this ruling, but I am scared what a similar ruling would do to the APHA.

To not allow registration of SPB's would be ludicrious..you would flood an already saturated market with a bunch of grade horses.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but again, I say...ACT on it! Support your local club's BS classes and if they dont offer any, speak with the BOD about adding some.

Enroll your SPB's in PAC or Ride America...

Solids are a fact of life if you are involved with paints..bottom line, end of story, unless you do exclusively Homozygous tobianos and most of them should be geldings anyway, you will get solids.

You forget, solids can still GENETICALY carry the paint pattern, that is the reason for "cropouts"..it all comes down to how the pattern is expressed. Even tobianos can be so minimal, people do not know they are paints and heck, they might even not have enough white for regular registry!

I had a Solid mare who carried the sabiano gene..she even gave me an overo filly by a QH stallion. I sold her and when they bred her to their tobiano, they got a solid..

I had an 80% white paint mare who had crappy color production, even bred to another loud paint, she only ever had ONE colored foal.

APHA and breeders realize breeding stocks CAN be a goldmine..one can get a REALLY nice horse for alot cheaper, that still has the genetics to produce the color.

Bottom line is, SPB are not the breed ideal, nor the standard, as they lack the color..it is no way ment venomously, but its the truth..
JMO
Sarah

 

[ArrowHBrand]

I agree that they do have more opportunities now than ever before however I still don't think you are catching my point. Lets say you want an ice cream cone and someone gives you one minus the ice cream. It's the same with SPB's. They want to give you the registration, but you have to adhere to being of a lesser status. With the right marketing SPB's can be very lucrative, but you have to put more time in training them than you would a tobiano. The training usually sells SPB's, in my opinion. We sold a solid deep chestnut in April who could flying lead change, spin, cut and sort cattle, do just about anything you wanted her to do and I think we got such a good price, at an auction no less, was because she was so well trained.
Am I disappointed when we get an SPB? Not so much if it's a filly, but I am gloriously excited when we get a true Paint. We are changing our broodmare herd over to homozygous Paints and are lining up a breeding fee for next spring to a homozygous stud. Take the guess work out of it all.
Any way back to the point. Equal footing for all Paints. Or divide the registry into R.R. Paints and SPB's and give them both the same amount of time, attention, marketing, public exposure, etc. Send SPB's out with R.R. Paint papers, but maybe do some sort of breeding restrictions like the Thoroughbreds do.