Son and Momma

[Rustler9]

I don't know about the other breed associations but I assume that they will register inbred or linebred animals; the Texas Longhorn association does recognize these animals. For example my bull Heineken Dark is double bred King. His mother is a King grand daughter and is father is a King grandson. And then I bred his mother back to him. Got a good looking heifer calf out of this mating and so far she's showing great conformation, horn and size. I'll have no problem registering her.

 

[flaboy]

I don't know about the other breed associations but I assume that they will register inbred or linebred animals; the Texas Longhorn association does recognize these animals. For example my bull Heineken Dark is double bred King. His mother is a King grand daughter and is father is a King grandson. And then I bred his mother back to him. Got a good looking heifer calf out of this mating and so far she's showing great conformation, horn and size. I'll have no problem registering her.

Thanks Rustler9. Anyone know about Red Angus Association?

 

[Caustic Burno]

Hey you Burnos...brother and sister...aww..never mind

Earthworms are asexual wonder about tapeworms hmm... ;-)

 

[Caustic Burno]

Sorry CB - you missed this one. The half brother x half sister is fine - called linebreeding. The son to the dam is inbreeding and over 50% of one animal in the pedigree. I would suggest you read The Basis of Linebreeding by Jim Lents ( [email protected]) The son to dam will just bring out any genetic flaws quicker. Line breeding is fine - if you know how to cull - as it will magnify the best and the worst. Angus Breeders - look at EXT - half sib mating. If you like the heifers - keep them- they will be your great cows.

So how does this affect registration? Just curious if "linebreeding" is approved by any registering associations. Lets for example say 1/2 brother is bred to 1/2 sister and (not that it matters) both are from the same AI bull. Just curious.

Couldn't tell you as I am a commericial operation.

 

[Farminlund]

My experience is different.

Once had father breed his daughter - resulted in deformed front leg & could not stand, put calf down.

Father of bull & father of dam the same (ie half brother sister) - resulted in calf without anus - put calf down. The bull & cow were both a result of AI breeding, while the calf w/o a hole was naturally conceived from the half brother & sister.

I mainly AI so I do not have much bull breeding experience, but what little I have had says inbreeding don't work on this farm & in my herd of cattle.

It may well be that they were already stacked with the same genetics too many times in the pedigree, and there were too many bad traits in those genetics.
I personally have used a line-bred Hazlett/Turner Ranch bloodline Hereford bull with excellent results. I used him primarily on outcross cows, and that is what the greatest benefit of a line bred sire is. They make great outcross calves.

It appears that my experience is not the norm, in fact, linebreeding which apparently means 1/2 brothers & 1/2 sisters mating is a means of improving performance in their progeny. I am unfortunately ignorant in this area. Would anyone be willing to look at the pedigrees of the 1/2 brother & sister which resulted in the anus-less calf & help me understand why things went wrong? I had assumed before this thread that because both had the same sire, the offspring was inbred, & thus I had the explanation for the defect - apparently from what folk are saying, that is not the case (it must be something more). I have each lineage in a separate PDF file. Could I attach them to a PM?

 

[MY]

Farminlund,

In your situation it probably WAS the linebreeding that produced the anus-less calf. However, that same defect potential is still with the sire and or dam, but going to surface less often when you outcross and scatter the gene pool wider. Nonetheless, it may still surface when you breed either that cow or bull again in the future, even if outcrossed.

Thus it is with good and bad traits, the wider we breed, the more elusive nailing down desireable traits are, and we can bury the bad traits easily. The tighter we breed, both the good and bad traits surface quicker, as the possible genetic combinations become fewer and fewer. As one old man put it "Double the goodness and triple the trash"

Selectivity and ruthless "no excuse" culling become imperative to succeed with this type of a program. The upside is being able to keep a clean and consistent gene pool which can then be "outcrossed" within the breed and still experience hybrid vigor in the offspring. This type of program is not for everyone as there are many heartaches involved. Once you cull out undesireable genes, they are forever discarded and the only way they can be recaptured is through introducing new blood. If one starts right and culls right, inbreeding can take place for dozens of generations successfully. Think of wild cattle, buffalo, horses sheep etc. that run in small herds. Most of them are fairly inbred and nature culls out the weak, while the strong survive and multiply. ;-)

 

[dun]

Dun,

If the good Doctor went 4 generations deep daughter back to sire it would have looked like this:

1st Inbreeding=75% EXT
2nd Inbreeding=87.5% EXT
3rd Inbreeding=93.75% EXT
4th Inbreeding=96.875% EXT

Now it was his "experiment" so to each his own, but clearly the good Doctor has no real world understanding on how to inbreed livestock! With that said, the fact that he had a healthy 93.75% daughter of EXT to breed back to stands as a testament that when using sound genetic stock to begin with, that you can get away with some quick and intense inbreeding with no problems whatsoever. I submit also that with another daughter inbred to the same degree, or perhaps even that same one again he could have gotten a good healthy 96.875% calf, but I believe he went about breeding heavily on EXT in the wrong manner to establish a good solid program.

An infusion of some other EXT based blood would have kept his options broader, while keeping the percentage of EXT blood still rather high. You don't necessarily want to raise the percentage of a particular individual in your breeding program as abruptly as this Doctor did, but you want to raise your Wright's Inbreeding Coefficient to high levels, while culling out all of the undesireable specimen. SELECTIVITY is the name of the game when dealing in family bred stock. When you get the WIC% high, then you have a good chance of a calf coming out just like one of the parents rather than the great great grandsire. I belive judicious use of inbreeding in the beef breeds would give even more predictability to offspring and that family bred sires or dams would prove to be better producers hands down than other bulls or cows of the breed. It takes some knowledge as to how to do it properly though; most never do, and and by the time the few do figure it out................................. they are close to dead!

DOC HARRIS pointed out on the cloning thread one of the keys to understanding breeding, and that was his work with something as simple seeming as Chinchillas, and he also had valuable experience with Akita dogs.

Back to the original post of being able to breed daughter to sire, son to mother, half brother to half sister........and all of those F1 inbreedings...... shouldn't be a problem whatsoever although expect some reduction in size and an increase in consistency.

As I said, it was a genetic experiment and that was all it was intended to be. He probably has a decent grasp of genetics since he worked at MARC in their reproductive test group and taught at KSU for a number of years. He's probably forgotten more about genetics and reproduction than most of us will ever learn. The bull calves from his "experiment" sold like hotcakes at the bull sales.
His point in the excercise was trying to look into the EXT disposition issue. I had the last of these heifers here and AIed her for him. She wasn;t any different then any other cow I've worked with and settled first service. We ran her with our cow herd until about 2 months before she calved. She had a little less stature then our heifers, but other then being black she pretty much fit right in.

dun

 

[greenwillowherefords]

Yes, line-breeding is recognized by the American Hereford Association, and back in the days when the Polled Hereford Association gave the various 'Gold Trophy Sire" or some title of that sort to proven high performance bulls, one of the criteria for achieving that status was that he be bred to a certain number of his own daughters without producing a defect. This is also the method for determining if a bull is the carrier of a defective gene.

 

[jerry27150]

last i knew WYE angus of maryland practiced linebreeding & sold bulls all over the country, i still get a catalog & they tell what % inbred they are, but are now starting to get away from it with some bulls