Sold some

Soil isnt soil. Sandy loam is totally different then clay loam,
Totall different if 2ft of top soil vs 2inches, 50 inches of annual moisture vs less then 10 , 70 plus percent humidity vs under 30 percent ,
1000ft vs 6000ft. Above sea level.
Soil that is frozen 3-6 months a year vs soil that never freezes.
Definitely! Lots of variables to take onto account, but plants act and reapond the same regardless of the location they reside.

I chose my words poorly. In fact though, people are turning unproductive sandy ground into productive black soil in places like Mexico, Florida, the southwest US, and even in Africa.

I'm moreso talking about the definition of overgrazing and how plants respond to a quick and severe grazing followed by a proper recovery period.

If we are talking continuous grazed or a lengthy rotation (on ground for a week or more) type of situation, what I'm saying will be of no use nor importance.
 
Last edited:
I'm moreso talking about the definition of overgrazing and how plants respond to a quick and severe grazing followed by a proper recovery period.

If we are talking continuous grazed or a lengthy rotation (on ground for a week or more) type of situation, what I'm saying will be of no use nor importance.
Disagree
Location and soil type make a huge difference.
Sandy soil in Florida is totally different than sandy soil at 6000ft in Utah .
And clay type soil and sandy soil in same location completely different .
If you watch the video I posted you would see that it is an overall overgrazing of the entire season not just a short duration of time. Doesn't matter if it from overgrazing, or as result of drought. How plants are treated before or after the stress is a bigger factor in recovery then what happens during the stress,
So using your example of cutting hay , how it is treated before and after cutting is a bigger factor in recovery then the actual cutting itself ,
Btw the person in the video also did a seminar about forage ect . At the Natl AAA annual meeting among many other places.
 
Disagree
Location and soil type make a huge difference.
Sandy soil in Florida is totally different than sandy soil at 6000ft in Utah .
And clay type soil and sandy soil in same location completely different .
If you watch the video I posted you would see that it is an overall overgrazing of the entire season not just a short duration of time. Doesn't matter if it from overgrazing, or as result of drought. How plants are treated before or after the stress is a bigger factor in recovery then what happens during the stress,
So using your example of cutting hay , how it is treated before and after cutting is a bigger factor in recovery then the actual cutting itself ,
Btw the person in the video also did a seminar about forage ect . At the Natl AAA annual meeting among many other places.
Right on and im sure youre roght about them being different. The hayfield thing was only intended to counter the pictures claim that it's 17 days before regrowth occurs when 90% is taken off the top. That's all I was meaning by that.

I'm not disputing the person isn't credible nor experienced. I was just throwing out stuff researchers have learned since the mid to late 2000's.

I'm pretty sure that image, the two example to the right, had been clipped every day or every other day with scissors. Prime example of overgrazing right there for sure if that was the case.

There's a lot that happens under the soil when something is grazed all the way down and allowed a proper recovery. I am not smart enough to get real technical, but has to do with chemical compositions of root exudates (sugars to fats) and the biology in the soil itself. Big part of which was how it worked to rebuild fungal networks which are almost magical. "They" seemed to have solved soil ph and nutrient issues while at the same time increasing soil organic matter with longterm stuff. Every single bit of it hinged on the various root action(s).

I'll try to find some links to the information. I found it very interesting. You may not.
 
Wow!! This has been a windy thread.
I just wanted to ask ?? How do you wean at 205 days of age?? Do you wean each calf individually??
I calve from 1-6 to 3-6. I wean the herd roughly 9-6 - so all calves are between 6 months and 8 months of age (averages out to be ABOUT 205 days). I "calculate" 205 day weaning weights of each calf so that I can compare what cow is doing a good or poor job.
I cringe every time I hear of a farm never weaning their calves - letting the cow wean them. "IF" the yearling gets weaned and is still hanging around the dam, when she calves, that can trigger his instincts to start nursing again. IF a yearling is still (or goes back to) nursing, the newborn is going to play heck getting it's turn at nursing fighting for the tit with a yearling. There goes the colostrum. Cow NEVER produces more colostrum. When it's gone - it's gone.
I think sometimes that I "over-manage" my herd - but, dang, my herd sure does perform!!!
I don't depend on watching what the market is doing. I don't care what the weights are on my steers (well I do - I want HEAVY steers) - I pre-sell my steers to a feedlot based on the HIGHEST October price at the only really good feeder calf sale. My steers may range from 700-900# (even a free-martin this past year).
With all the feedlots in some of you guys area - can't you deal DIRECT with a feedlot?
 
I have a problem with tact. It's hard to be tactful when an intention to discuss or learn is construed as an invitation to argue.


May be an image of 1 person and text
 
Wow!! This has been a windy thread.
I just wanted to ask ?? How do you wean at 205 days of age?? Do you wean each calf individually??
I calve from 1-6 to 3-6. I wean the herd roughly 9-6 - so all calves are between 6 months and 8 months of age (averages out to be ABOUT 205 days). I "calculate" 205 day weaning weights of each calf so that I can compare what cow is doing a good or poor job.
I cringe every time I hear of a farm never weaning their calves - letting the cow wean them. "IF" the yearling gets weaned and is still hanging around the dam, when she calves, that can trigger his instincts to start nursing again. IF a yearling is still (or goes back to) nursing, the newborn is going to play heck getting it's turn at nursing fighting for the tit with a yearling. There goes the colostrum. Cow NEVER produces more colostrum. When it's gone - it's gone.
I think sometimes that I "over-manage" my herd - but, dang, my herd sure does perform!!!
I don't depend on watching what the market is doing. I don't care what the weights are on my steers (well I do - I want HEAVY steers) - I pre-sell my steers to a feedlot based on the HIGHEST October price at the only really good feeder calf sale. My steers may range from 700-900# (even a free-martin this past year).
With all the feedlots in some of you guys area - can't you deal DIRECT with a feedlot?


As a general rule they do not go to a feedlot at weaning age. There are a lot of people that group and grow calves for the larger feeders to finish to slaughter weight. There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle in the cattle industry.
 
I'm not disputing the person isn't credible nor experienced. I was just throwing out stuff researchers have learned since the mid to late 2000's.
The link I posted is from a presentation given less than two years ago . Way later than 2000.
I think it was nov 2022 when he spoke at the Angus Convention. About developing a grazing plan using the new developments and research. And at many other places. And is still doing active research to this day .
Has testified at hearings in Washington DC about wild horse and burro management.
So I'm pretty sure he is aware and f the latest research .
 
The link I posted is from a presentation given less than two years ago . Way later than 2000.
I think it was nov 2022 when he spoke at the Angus Convention. About developing a grazing plan using the new developments and research. And at many other places. And is still doing active research to this day .
Has testified at hearings in Washington DC about wild horse and burro management.
So I'm pretty sure he is aware and f the latest research .
And yet @ClinchValley86 makes some good points that are worth considering. A narrow view works really well for specific circumstances but not all situations. Nothing wrong with considering other points of view for a more full understanding.
 
We wean at 205 days to give the cow a rest period before the next calf. Also you don't want her to calve while still nursing a bigger calf that could steal the colostrum.
Totally agree. We wean +/- 6 mos of age. When we let the cows wean calves naturally the next calf was weaker. Cows need the most nutrition and in utero calves need the same those last 3 mos of gestation.
 
And yet @ClinchValley86 makes some good points that are worth considering. A narrow view works really well for specific circumstances but not all situations. Nothing wrong with considering other points of view for a more full understanding.
Only thing I disagree with is the claim that what I said was not supported by current research. Also posted a link to why that was my opinion. When it was again claimed it was outdated and not supported by new research, pointed out the dates of presentation and the fact that he is currently doing research today so that I am sure his presentations are using the latest research and data.
Time to take your obsession in a different direction.
I have no reason to get on and post I agree ,to something up to 20 others have said they agree with. Only post if I have a different point of view . No interest in holding hands and singing cumbia together. And you have confused that with me only being contrarian.
 
And you have confused that with me only being contrarian.
Indeed I have...

I'm interested in the way forage recovers from grazing or harvesting for hay, and I wonder if a recovery period often depends on local circumstances. Some people get four cuttings a year for hay after cutting very close to the ground. Soil and water must be working overtime.
 
Indeed I have...

I'm interested in the way forage recovers from grazing or harvesting for hay, and I wonder if a recovery period often depends on local circumstances. Some people get four cuttings a year for hay after cutting very close to the ground. Soil and water must be working overtime.
That's what the dairy farms do here. 4 cuttings of alfalfa - and we have a very short hay season.
 
Wow!! This has been a windy thread.
I just wanted to ask ?? How do you wean at 205 days of age?? Do you wean each calf individually??
I calve from 1-6 to 3-6. I wean the herd roughly 9-6 - so all calves are between 6 months and 8 months of age (averages out to be ABOUT 205 days). I "calculate" 205 day weaning weights of each calf so that I can compare what cow is doing a good or poor job.
I cringe every time I hear of a farm never weaning their calves - letting the cow wean them. "IF" the yearling gets weaned and is still hanging around the dam, when she calves, that can trigger his instincts to start nursing again. IF a yearling is still (or goes back to) nursing, the newborn is going to play heck getting it's turn at nursing fighting for the tit with a yearling. There goes the colostrum. Cow NEVER produces more colostrum. When it's gone - it's gone.
I think sometimes that I "over-manage" my herd - but, dang, my herd sure does perform!!!
I don't depend on watching what the market is doing. I don't care what the weights are on my steers (well I do - I want HEAVY steers) - I pre-sell my steers to a feedlot based on the HIGHEST October price at the only really good feeder calf sale. My steers may range from 700-900# (even a free-martin this past year).
With all the feedlots in some of you guys area - can't you deal DIRECT with a feedlot?
I think not putting calves into an open market might let a producer get complacent with what the buyer is offering. I want several different buyers to know how our calves can perform. This year our 240 biggest steer calves were forward contracted online to a lot near Brussells Ontario. Long hike for the swamp rats.
 
I'm interested in the way forage recovers from grazing or harvesting for hay, and I wonder if a recovery period often depends on local circumstances. Some people get four cuttings a year for hay after cutting very close to the ground. Soil and water must be working overtime.
If you would actually watch some of the info. posted you would have at least one researchers point of view on that.
Biggest unknown determining factor in this area on number of alfalfa cuttings per year is temperature, second largest is water availability.
Another big factor that is easily controlled is percentage of bloom stage at cutting . Alfalfa cuttings for dairy hay is always cut prebloom. Beef and other alfalfa is cut anywhere from 10 precent bloom on up to almost completely bloomed.
Alfalfa cuttings for dairy hay will almost always get an additional cutting on the same ground as hay cut for beef cattle.
Decision of sacrificing tdn for more total volume /tons.
 
Disagree
Location and soil type make a huge difference.
Sandy soil in Florida is totally different than sandy soil at 6000ft in Utah .
And clay type soil and sandy soil in same location completely different .
If you watch the video I posted you would see that it is an overall overgrazing of the entire season not just a short duration of time. Doesn't matter if it from overgrazing, or as result of drought. How plants are treated before or after the stress is a bigger factor in recovery then what happens during the stress,
So using your example of cutting hay , how it is treated before and after cutting is a bigger factor in recovery then the actual cutting itself ,
Btw the person in the video also did a seminar about forage ect . At the Natl AAA annual meeting among many other places.

If you would actually watch some of the info. posted you would have at least one researchers point of view on that.
Biggest unknown determining factor in this area on number of alfalfa cuttings per year is temperature, second largest is water availability.
Another big factor that is easily controlled is percentage of bloom stage at cutting . Alfalfa cuttings for dairy hay is always cut prebloom. Beef and other alfalfa is cut anywhere from 10 precent bloom on up to almost completely bloomed.
Alfalfa cuttings for dairy hay will almost always get an additional cutting on the same ground as hay cut for beef cattle.
Decision of sacrificing tdn for more total volume /tons.

Ever wonder why you are seen as contrarian?
 
If you would actually watch some of the info. posted you would have at least one researchers point of view on that.
Biggest unknown determining factor in this area on number of alfalfa cuttings per year is temperature, second largest is water availability.
Another big factor that is easily controlled is percentage of bloom stage at cutting . Alfalfa cuttings for dairy hay is always cut prebloom. Beef and other alfalfa is cut anywhere from 10 precent bloom on up to almost completely bloomed.
Alfalfa cuttings for dairy hay will almost always get an additional cutting on the same ground as hay cut for beef cattle.
Decision of sacrificing tdn for more total volume /tons.
The plant species that you're dealing with also affects it's ability to recover after cutting. Alfalfa is a "tap root" type of plant, deeper root, so it can recover more easily during drought conditions than a shorter rooted species like many/most grasses. However, I still believe that the underlying PRINCIPLES remain.

Here in the upper midwest, and having grown up dairying, it's common to cut alfalfa for haylage at pre-very early bud stage, and to take 4 cuttings/year (dryland farming, avg. rainfall around 30"/year). Grassy hay would be more like 3 cuttings/year. BUT... (there's always a but), most of the hay is grown in a crop rotation, and most of it is only left in the field for about 2 years of hay production, then it's plowed up and rotated to corn for a couple years, often followed by soybeans for a year, and then seeded down to straight alfalfa again (not typically a blend of forages). My point is, alfalfa grown this intensively is NOT EXPECTED TO LAST... it's pushed hard for production in it's first couple years under these cutting/haying operations, and because of that, its production drops off pretty rapidly year over year after the first two... It's looked at kind of like "one and dones". Usually, in that first seeding year it's allowed to get established, and it is managed to go into winter freeze-up so it has plenty of root reserve THAT year to produce heavily in the next... but in that next season, it will be cut right up to freeze-up with less concern for root reserves, because it's intended to be rotated out anyway.

This is a very different scenario than what I'm looking for from my perennial pastures, on the very same kind of soils, in the same regional area. I want/need all of my desired plant species to be developing deep root systems, that are resilient, and that will survive, and hopefully THRIVE, even during drought, and that will be maintaining and hopefully INCREASING in production year over year. I want my grasses to be tillering... and becoming more dense. Alfalfa, though I like it in my pasture blends, doesn't typically maintain itself well over years of grazing, and will typically become crowded out by the grasses. Red Clover, an "alternative" legume component, is somewhat similar in "depth of root", although it has a more fibrous rooting system than alfalfa, and it doesn't have the same kind of "crown" which tends to be affected by grazing and hoof traffic as alfalfa is..., so it "survives" better. I put both into my blends, but the alfalfa thins out, whereas the clover can be maintained more easily.

Management strategy for ALL of the available forages out in the pasture is pretty much the same though, and the video supports this... "take half, leave half" so you don't "prune the roots", and allow for plenty of undisturbed rest between grazings. He's not suggesting in this video to "graze short", anywhere. He's pretty clear, if you take more than that, you'll be reducing the potential for forage production in the future, and the forages that are there will be less resilient when faced with challenges like drought. Plants require leaf area to facilitate the photosynthetic process. The more leaf area, the more photosynthesis the plant can accomplish, and the more "carbon" it can inject back into the system. Plants respond to grazing or cutting, by "healing" after the "injury", with increased "growth" and flow of nutrients... much in the same way that our bodies respond to injury... and it's how we build muscle by "stressing them". If the plants don't have enough leaf area remaining to get the necessary energy for this regrowth from the sun, they have to take it OUT of the roots to build back that leaf area, until it gets back to a large enough area to begin rebuilding the root system again.

Too much "stress", and we won't recover as well, and we can "go downhill". Too little stress, and we won't increase in muscle mass, and in fact, we can "atrophe".
 
As a general rule they do not go to a feedlot at weaning age. There are a lot of people that group and grow calves for the larger feeders to finish to slaughter weight. There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle in the cattle industry.
In this area weight determines where they go. I have been told by barn owners and buyers that the majority of our steers weaning 725 and up go to the lot.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top